EQing your speakers and the room

  • Wouldn't it be great if we could have the KPA generate some white/pink noise (or whatever is needed) through the output section, and then have it use a mic and part of the profiling circuitry to determine and generate a fairly flat EQ for the KPA output, not matter what speakers used or what room shape/size that you're playing in? ...

  • Wouldn't it be great if we could have the KPA generate some white/pink noise (or whatever is needed) through the output section, and then have it use a mic and part of the profiling circuitry to determine and generate a fairly flat EQ for the KPA output, not matter what speakers used or what room shape/size that you're playing in? ...


    I thougt about that too. I always wanted to try one of those Behringer devices that can do that.

  • the basic problem with that approach is, that you are trying to fix problems you are having in the time domain, in the frequency domain. if your room needs help, it needs absorbers, bass traps etc., - not eq IMO.


    eq-ing studio monitors to make them sound more flat has never worked for me, you simply can't substitute well-made speakers.
    even if it did work and the sound of your studio monitors would improve, such a device would belong in the master channel of your mixing software, not into a preamp.
    once you'd record it, your correctional eq would always be there.

  • Well, i totall agree with you, room problems should be fixed with acoustic measures. But concerning speakers, all active 10" or 12" i tried never sounded as good or natural as my studio monitors. I would really like to try such a thing to get bigger active speakers a little closer to studio monitors.

  • I'd agree totally regarding recording - but for performance in my apartment, my studio, in a packed (or half-packed) club, at a friend's house, etc, it might be nice to have a semblance of consistency ... this could avoid having one spend a fair amount of time creating a nice profile at home, then being unpleasantly surprised during a performance to discover that's it's not-so-hot onstage ...

  • I'd agree totally regarding recording - but for performance in my apartment, my studio, in a packed (or half-packed) club, at a friend's house, etc, it might be nice to have a semblance of consistency ... this could avoid having one spend a fair amount of time creating a nice profile at home, then being unpleasantly surprised during a performance to discover that's it's not-so-hot onstage ...


    but the Profiler IS the one part of that equation that always is consistent! :)


    human hearing OTOH is very level dependend, so check your rigs in a live context first and any make needed adjustments, before taking it on stage.

  • I agree with all so far - the KPA is perfectly consistent indeed - and Fletcher Munson is also one of the issues that I refer to ... but again, my big issues (other than the F-M curve) are room sizes, shapes, and capacities ... One may not have the opportunity before-hand to adjust EQ before the show PLUS IF I HAVE MIC PLACED AT AN OPTIMAL SPOT IN THE CLUB, I can get a great EQ from WHERE MY EARS NEED TO BE, as opposed to me trying to adjust it from the stage ... I think having the KPA being able to do this would be great! and probably would't be that difficult (?) for CK to implement with the current hardware ....

  • One may not have the opportunity before-hand to adjust EQ before the show


    I always used reheasals to get live-ready sounds.


    PLUS IF I HAVE MIC PLACED AT AN OPTIMAL SPOT IN THE CLUB, I can get a great EQ from WHERE MY EARS NEED TO BE, as opposed to me trying to adjust it from the stage


    getting the monitor sound right is usually the monitor mixers or at smaller venues the FOH mixers job, it's a matter of communication.
    If you need more control than that, you could bring your own wedge monitor, or go IEM.


    nice caps lock btw. :D

  • The idea of correcting for the room is not what is needed. Correcting for the speaker's response curve is a great idea though. We do this anyways in the KPA's Monitor EQ. It would be nice if this EQ was a multi band (10?) parametric which could be set through a test algorithm and calibration mic located in close proximity. This would be done once with initial use of a new monitor. Being able to save the EQ as a preset would be perfect.


    bd

  • OK ... even if it's not for you, I still think that it'd be a quite welcome addition for most of us who play live ... btw, sorry for the CAPS post - I just wanted to be sure to emphasize the parts of my post to be the most pertinent ... my apologies if your ears are bleedin' :)


    1) Yes, my rehearsal studio should be properly configured with baffles etc (you guys aren't married are ya, :) ?), but others in my family might not be in total agreement


    2) I never get to rehearse at the venues I play beforehand, and even if I could, the room EQ changes significantly when people start to fill it


    3) I don't have a monitor mixer (I play solo jazz chord melody style), and I AM critcal about my tone (dropped $2K on a KPA, didn't I?), so I don't neccesarily trust the FOH dude's ears for what I do ...


    4) I'm not compensating for poor speakers/amp - I'm using 2 Clarus II power amps and 2 Raezer's Edge 12" Ext Range cabs and I'm quite happy with the setup


    I think it'd be great use this feature to get the KPA 'centered' at home, create my profile, then go to the club, place the sensor mic accordingly, and 'center' the KPA for the audience ... I'd at least be reasonably assured that they were hearing it the way that I wanted them to hear it ....

  • I just placed an order for a DEQ2496 with a measurement mic in order to see how good this works. Will report back...

    Yes, please!


    A friend got this KRK Ergo Studio Monitor Room Processor. And he was very dissapointed by the room correction funktion! He still uses it, but only as a monitor controller, not the room correction.

    www.audiosemantics.de
    I have been away for quite a while. A few years ago I sold my KPA and since then played my own small tube amp with a Bad Cat Unleash. Now I am back because the DI-profile that I made from my amp sounds very much convincing to me.

  • This is what worries me more than anything about using my KPA live. So far I have been reluctant to do it because I know I will never get the chance to spend any time eq'ing the FOH sound.


    In some ways it makes no sense to get a high quality FRFR setup to tweak all my presets for on stage monitoring then go and play in a club with a crappy FOH setup...which tends to be the norm.


    Maybe I should tweak them with a typical FOH speaker.

  • This is what worries me more than anything about using my KPA live. So far I have been reluctant to do it because I know I will never get the chance to spend any time eq'ing the FOH sound.


    In some ways it makes no sense to get a high quality FRFR setup to tweak all my presets for on stage monitoring then go and play in a club with a crappy FOH setup...which tends to be the norm.


    Maybe I should tweak them with a typical FOH speaker.


    This is why it's important to set up your tones on the flattest possible speaker possible. Think of setting up your tones as similar to the process of preparing a record on reference monitor. The idea is not that it will sound best on a system where the bass is hyped or which has a smile EQ. The idea is that whatever kind of system you play through, the sound you set up "translates" when you play it on a different kind of speaker. It might not be the best sound possible, but this will help you avoid a situation where you have the worst sound, because you dialled in too many lows or highs.


    The FOH is probably never going to be FRFR. Neither is the sound equipment when you play in a giant arena. So having a sound check is essential. Get one of your band members (the drummer) who knows your sound to stand up front a little ahead of your gig and figure out what is lacking or is too hyped in your sound. When your set comes up, have a friend ask the sound man nicely to set everything appropriately, or if that fails, at least to set it all flat as possible. There's a reason even big bands do a sound check :thumbup:

  • Get one of your band members (the drummer) who knows your sound to stand up front a little ahead of your gig and figure out what is lacking or is too hyped in your sound. When your set comes up, have a friend ask the sound man nicely to set everything appropriately, or if that fails, at least to set it all flat as possible.

    1) A wireless can be very useful. You can hop off the stage and listen to yourself playing through the FOH and walk up to the soundman and talk yourself to him.



    2) I found it useful to send two different signals to the mixer: one for FOH and another one that he returns to the musicians monitors. This allows me to have better control over the monitor sound. Many mixing desks in Clubs don't offer the quality of EQ that the KEMPER has in the Monitor Out section.



    3) But above all I have to agree to what tenderboy wrote:

    From my experience I can tell that a sound programmed on good studiomonitors in a proper room will translate well to most speakers you encounter in a live situation

    The better (in terms of soundengineer craftsmanship) your profile is made, the less it looses it's substance in bad PA or suboptimal acoustic situations.



    4) With all this technology inside the Kemper we should not forget how much you can influence the sound by choosing well the place and direction where on stage you put your amps.

    www.audiosemantics.de
    I have been away for quite a while. A few years ago I sold my KPA and since then played my own small tube amp with a Bad Cat Unleash. Now I am back because the DI-profile that I made from my amp sounds very much convincing to me.

  • From my experience I can tell that a sound programmed on good studiomonitors in a proper room will translate well to most speakers you encounter in a live situation


    This is the correct approach.
    Your favorite CDs should sound great on your monitors, as well as your favorite rigs and profiles.
    The live PA should play the same CDs in a pleasant way.
    If this does not sound right, the PA must be adjusted in general.
    Pro's test the PA with recordings first, as you have the broadest bandwith and a nice and known reference.


    It is too narrow thinking to adjust the sound of the guitar on the FOH. How about your singer or keyboarder?
    If you don't trust the FOH guy, it is a good idea to play the profiler, since he will receive a ready to go signal with a microphone sound and placement embedded in the profile already. Many people state that they have a much better and reliable sound in a live venue, by that reason.


    About studio room adaption: we will never have this feature. It requires a different technique.

  • I am mainly thinking about correction of the EQ curve for you own monitor system just in order to give you a more satisfying playing experience. Using 31 band graphic EQs can really help, but setting those by ear can be challenging if not impossible.


    Right now, i have some JBL Eon 15" actives. I am having a hard time tweaking the monitor eq to make them sound good, which of course is not a problem of the KPA but the EONs. Many users of the DEQ2496 reported that the use of setting the EQ by the combination of RTA Mics, Noise Generators and and a differential curve (similar to what ozone does) helped them to optimize their playback system. Even if this not gonna work this is still very useful for my huge old HIFI Speakers :)