Delayed pitch shifted notes.

Quote from ckemper

Sorry guys, but I have strong opinions on this topic.

I have yet to hear cool and convincing examples of a pitch shifter with a long delay. The few examples that we heard where pretty academic to me. You should ask for a delay on every effect, why the pitch shifter? Well, I know, because it is on every pitch shifter of the competition.

Every pitch shifter from any competitor took that idea out of the typical use of the original Eventide going right back to the 70s. One of the most frequent uses of the original Harmonizer was to take two Eventides and delay one of the two. That was done on countless 80s vocal tracks. Listen for every vocal-track Chris Lord-Alge has ever mixed. The original H910 had a delay already built in that was used for above mentioned effects. But probably most important was the feedback parameter on the delay on the H910. The descending snare on "young americans" by Bowie (produced by Tony Visconti) is a very famous example for effects created with pitch shift->delay and feedback into the input of the shifter.

Hell, Brian Eno made a whole career out ot feeding back delayed pitch shifted signals. It's all over U2's Joshua Tree - although Eno was feeding it with his DX7 most of the time In fact it doesn't matter what you feed into it, even a guitar fed into a shifter with delay and feedback will sound like Eno. And seeing how frequently people ask on audio-forums how those "Eno"-effects are actually done, I really can't see those things are outdated or an arbitrary mock of some journalists.

I mean who are we arguing with engineers ranging from Visconti to Lord-Alge, from Clearmountain to Pensado about the use of a delay in a pitch shifter? They used it and they created sounds with it that can't be done otherwise. Guitarists took this effect they've learned about in the studios while their singer was recorded and used it on guitar. I mean Jon Anderson was test user of the first prototype and it's by no means a coincidence that a slightly delayed pitchshifter was used on the solo of "owner of a lony heart" by Yes.

Quote from ckemper

Having a constant short delay on a pitch shifter does not make it less artificial, no matter what is stated or written somwhere. In my perception this is an approach to make it even sound more unnatural. Two guitarists never have a constant offset when they play together. Good guitarists have a changing delay, but so small that it is not perceivable. Does this make a dual solo sound artificial? Not at all.

It's not about "artifial" or "natural" it's about getting THAT sound. There is even an IR of the above mentioned setup of an Eventide in Altiverb so I guess there is a constant demand for it.

As for the "natural or not"-argument: Feeding the signal from the sync-head of a tape to the sync-head of another tape and mix the output of the two repro-heads together isn't exactely going to produce a "natural" double-track impression either. But after all that John-Lennon-guy thought it was the shizzle and after having moved to NY had Geoff Emmerick flown in to set it up exactely like Abbey Road as he didn't like the "improved" method they were using in american studios.

So if something makes technical sense or has "better" alternatives is completely irrelevant for its musical use. Otherwise we wouldn't bother with things like tape-delay anymore. Heck, we wouldn't even be using tube amps anymore as that is an ancient technology overcome by "better" alternatives since decades.

Hell that whole electric guitar business is nothing like "natural". Leo Fender wanted an natural acoustic guitar sound - just louder. Imagine his disappointment when Jimi Hendrix came around

Quote from ckemper

I will not add 4 to 6 parameters to the pitch shifter, where I cannot see that it will add a musical benefit.
The parameters would be: delay (ms), delay in musical notes, feedback.
Doubled for both pitch shifter voices. Many parameters, while I am trying to keep the profiler simple and effective.

It's exactely those parameters that are missing from the current implementation in the KPA to do the things I described above. I really can't understand why you don't just put them in.

Are we really supposed to buy an Eventide only for this effect when it's actually no problem to put those parameters in the KPA`s pitch shifter?

Quote from Guitartone

Why you so angry, Will?

No anger. Sometimes on the internet tone can be implied when it isn't. I've been holding out on buying another Timebender (regret selling it) with the hopes a similar effect would be added to the KPA. With CK's response, it's clear I shouldn't hold out and go ahead and pick one up. With it's addition my board will be; Digitech Whammy, Digitech Timebender, Zoom G3, Zoom MS-70CDR, Electro Harmonics Freeze. And that's in addition to the FCB1010 to control the Kemper. I didn't need the Zoom pedals when I was using dedicated floor units as they had the effects which the Kemper lack that I need. I realize I probably use more effect than most KPA users. And CK is right that this is a niche effect which the vast majority of guitarists would never use. Even in this thread most players have very different usage scenarios than I envision.

I think it would be hard to find just one product that could do it all for all,
you could add this and that or whatever you might need, but there will always be
another company's to turn to when you are in need for a certain effect(s) or sound,
old news but i think there is no way around!

The thing that intriges me about this effect is that it lets me create riffs and soundscapes that i wouldnt be abel think of or even play because the shifted note can add such complicity to the notes you play..

We have 65 posts on this thead now, but no consense that several different applications of a pitch shifter is needed here.

There is at least two different ways to combine a pitch shifter with a delay, when feedback is applied:

1. Pitch Shifter outside the delays feedback loop, creating simple pitch shifted delays.
Featured by Eventide Timeline and Digitech Timebender, but not Axe or old Eventides

2. Pitch Shifter inside the delays feedback loop, causing pitch shifting with every repetition.

Does it make no difference to you?

Quote from ckemper

We have 65 posts on this thead now, but no consense that several different applications of a pitch shifter is needed here.

There is at least two different ways to combine a pitch shifter with a delay, when feedback is applied:

1. Pitch Shifter outside the delays feedback loop, creating simple pitch shifted delays.
Featured by Eventide Timeline and Digitech Timebender, but not Axe or old Eventides

2. Pitch Shifter inside the delays feedback loop, causing pitch shifting with every repetition.

Does it make no difference to you?

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It makes a world of a difference to me.

Variant 2. makes those beautiful ambient texture effects (read: Eno). With feedback on zero it can still do the tiny amount of delay used to seperate the attack phase of the pitch-shifted sound from the original. True, that will never sound like two guitarists doubling a take but it will give that classic 80s sound best featured in the solo of "owner of a lonely heart".

Variant 1. wouldn't do the "Crystal delay" part and I can't really see much use for it in the experimental field. Although it actually is different from just putting pitch and delay in series (as we can already do in the KPA) I think it sounds pretty much like what we already have. So to me the Variant 2. would be IT But everybody has different needs and other people might think just the opposite.

I dont understand the difference between the two. Could someone explain?

Do both, no complaints that way

I can easily imagine to put a pitch shifter into a fully equipped delay, rather than putting a simple delay into a pitch shifter.

Some of you got emotional about this topic. This is good and brings us into the right direction. I am trying to find out what the real applications are.

Variant 1 is pretty academic IMHO. The only music I have heard was gear demos.
Variant 2 is cool, but leads to soundscapes rather than rhythms, that are better combined with a reverb.

Garrincha, not every company took the old Eventide paradigm 1:1, especially Eventide did not.

Btw:I have listened carefully again to the owner of the lonely heard solo. There is no individual delay on the shifted fifth. That is clearly audible especially in the fast played lines. Instead there is a reverb-like delay network applied to the whole signal, causing a screaming combfilter effect and slap back and diffusion.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y…2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYCENW-IrKTU

A repost to specify what im searching after... The expression pedal part of it is not as important as the effect itself

Quote from ckemper

I can easily imagine to put a pitch shifter into a fully equipped delay, rather than putting a simple delay into a pitch shifter.

Wouldn't it be pretty much the same? I don't see the difference, but if it can be implemented easier than putting a delay in the shifter, then I'm all for it.

Quote from ckemper

Variant 2 is cool, but leads to soundscapes rather than rhythms, that are better combined with a reverb.

You can use it for arpeggios as well. That wouldn't work with a reverb instead of a delay. But reverb on top of it - now we are talking

Quote from ckemper

Garrincha, not every company took the old Eventide paradigm 1:1, especially Eventide did not.

Sure, as soon as they went to a modular approach, everything was possible. That was the cool thing about those boxes. Actually programming them was not so cool

But the Boss SE-70 has the same approach, probably Roland was aiming at Eventide back then.

Quote from ckemper

Btw:I have listened carefully again to the owner of the lonely heard solo. There is no individual delay on the shifted fifth. That is clearly audible especially in the fast played lines. Instead there is a reverb-like delay network applied to the whole signal, causing a screaming combfilter effect and slap back and diffusion.

You are certainly right about a conventional delay on top of it all. But I think I hear a slightly delayed attack of the shifted sound. But it could also be a very simple thing: The tracking time of the Eventide. I never worked with a 910 only with the H3000 and up but there is a a certain time the algorithm needed to track the input. That must be even larger on a 910. That could be the explanation.

Now that I've spent some quality time with the harmonizer, my request would be to add features that create a more convincing illusion of two guitarists playing together. I'm guessing that allowing delay and modulation to be applied only to the harmony voice(s) might help. Right now the KPA's harmonizer is amazing for creating tightly integrated, synth-like sounds. It sounds too perfect when the goal is to emulate the human sloppiness of a dueling guitar solo (Hotel California, Boys Are Back In Town, Dogs, etc.).

Quote from burningyen

Now that I've spent some quality time with the harmonizer, my request would be to add features that create a more convincing illusion of two guitarists playing together. I'm guessing that allowing delay and modulation to be applied only to the harmony voice(s) might help. Right now the KPA's harmonizer is amazing for creating tightly integrated, synth-like sounds. It sounds too perfect when the goal is to emulate the human sloppiness of a dueling guitar solo (Hotel California, Boys Are Back In Town, Dogs, etc.).

Yeah the Line 6 Vetta had this feature and it was quite convincing.
Varying degrees of a slight delay and detune for L/R as well as differing dynamics compressing and expanding the 2 channel made for a very lovely experience.

Interesting, Ingolf, I didn't know the Vetta had that feature.

To clarify, when I say apply delay to the harmony voice, I mean having the harmony voice start slightly late.

Yes, only a slight offset, no 'real' delay. You could dial it from tight to really sloppy.
I've forgotten how that feature was named in the Vetta, but it sure was very cool to have.

Quote from Ingolf

Yes, only a slight offset, no 'real' delay. You could dial it from tight to really sloppy.
I've forgotten how that feature was named in the Vetta, but it sure was very cool to have.

Interestingly, I had this exact conversation with CK at NAMM. He was unaware of what Line6 had done, and was interested.....