Switching through Performance Mode Sounds

    It's not a real problem, but another behaviour than before in the browse mode, so I'm a little bit scared, that this puzzles me playing live. I never used performance mode live so far.


    If I use a rig in browse mode and I add a stomp or effect with my foot controller (FC300) I use this while playing this sound. After changing that sound and coming back, the selected stomp or effect is deselected again. Of course, because I didn't save it and getting the preset again, it starts with the unchanged preset. So far so good.


    Now in performance mode you don't have to save a change as long as you a stay in the same bank. Means, if I select a stomp or effect and I don't change it back while playing this sound it stays even if I select another sound (out of this bank) in the meanwhile. If I change the bank and come back then, it's the original sound again without the selected stomp or effect.


    Is there a way to change that? To make sure, the stomp or effect sets back to normal after selecting another sound (of the same bank)?


    I know, a very subjective question, but perhaps someone has an idea. :)

    Thanks to the Kemper Guys!


    With the latest FW 2.1.0 and the Beta before this behaviour is gone. It took some time while rehearsing to understand and realize, but I'm glad it's solved! :)

    Funny... I missed your first post, but I also noticed the change and today I posted a very similar question... the only difference is that I prefer the previous behavior! :)


    The strange thing is that if you switch slot by hand (using the arrows in the front panel) the stomp are memorized without saving (the way I like).


    I prefer the previous behavior because if I want to "reset" the stomp to the original position I just switch rapidly bank up-down...


    I think I need to downgrade to 2.0 :(

    I see the pros and cons of both versions and understand your point. I think both ways have benefits.


    I more or less lived with your preferred version as it allowed me to make changes and adaption while playing a song. They stayed even when I switched inside this bank and I could store when needed afterwards, when I could take my hand off the guitar.


    On the other hand now again I can temporarily add one or more stomps etc. to a sound and when I step on it again, the original sound is back without using several pedals one after the other.

    It's a pretty interesting info, that the bevaviour with the cursor is different. Thanks for that.


    And I hope you'll get along with that anyhow. :S

    Quote from ballantine

    I'd like to have an official answer... Do you think I have to post it somewhere else?

    I thought it was clear. My fault. It is by choice. Switching via MIDI is considered "live use" so it is expected the guitarist switching back and forth is not "editing" but "performing".


    An "editing" user is probably sitting nearby the Profiler and setting up his performance, like level adjustments etc.


    Timo

    Quote from timo

    I thought it was clear. My fault. It is by choice. Switching via MIDI is considered "live use" so it is expected the guitarist switching back and forth is not "editing" but "performing".


    An "editing" user is probably sitting nearby the Profiler and setting up his performance, like level adjustments etc.


    Timo


    Sorry, but I don't agree at all.
    In case of a professional musician in a medium/big stage (like me), an "editing" user adjust and fine tune the sounds of a performance in that particular venue... Changing monitors, speaker, theater, club the sounds always need some adjustment and to check the balance between sounds (before saving) I'm always near my foot controller and my monitor.... and definitely relatively far from the profiler.


    The way it acts now is very uncomfortable on the stage and I find the difference between hand and foot a bit incoherent... i.e. the "E" for edited stays on even if I change sound... and so it is not edited anymore.


    Last but not least, as I said in the other thread, before there was a simple workaround to reset the sounds the way were stored (bank up/down) and now, if I want to edit my sounds switching via MIDI, there is no workaround... I have to walk back and forth to my profiler and always save the changes...


    If this choice is not reversible I'm very disappointed... :(

    Quote from ballantine

    In case of a professional musician in a medium/big stage (like me), an "editing" user adjust and fine tune the sounds of a performance in that particular venue... Changing monitors, speaker, theater, club the sounds always need some adjustment and to check the balance between sounds (before saving) I'm always near my foot controller and my monitor.... and definitely relatively far from the profiler.

    In this case you would need to restrict yourself to 5 rigs. Otherwise you would need to store the performance anyways.


    A better option to adapt to a venue might be Master section, where EQ etc. are available. The good thing is, one can even store and recall these "Venue Presets", independently from your actual Rigs/Performances.


    Timo

    Quote from timo

    In this case you would need to restrict yourself to 5 rigs. Otherwise you would need to store the performance anyways.


    A better option to adapt to a venue might be Master section, where EQ etc. are available. The good thing is, one can even store and recall these "Venue Presets", independently from your actual Rigs/Performances.


    Timo


    Timo, are you joking or what?
    You know that there are hundreds of cases where a guitar player need to setup and modify a sound or a performance on the stage where the simple Eq is definitely not enough!... Different guitars, different speakers, different venues...
    in these cases very rarely you can use the exact same presets just adjusting the master Eq or the clean and distortion sense...
    You can admit it or not, but the way the profiler acts now is very incoherent because it acts differently if I'm at home with my profiler on my desk preparing a new performance or if I'm on the stage trying to find a good balance and feel
    between the five sounds a made at home.


    I know that it looks like a very little problem in this forum and maybe nobody is interested but the truth is that most of the best professional players I know never use internet to discuss features and sounds...


    Think about a real amplifier with multiple channels (i.e. Mesa Boogie mark series)... I adjust the settings of every channel then I test the different sounds in my main location, in front of my monitor and my floor controller
    And, obviously, if I need more than 5 sounds I'll use more than one performance...


    IMHO the previous behavior was more useful!


    Hope you can rethink the pros and cons of this new thing...

    Reading my own post I think that maybe I wasn't enough clear... With the Mesa Boogie example I mean that now with the profiler I always have to save the performance every little change I make to a single sound... If I don't save when I test my five sounds I lose the changes.


    Of course I can live with the new behavior (walking back and forth during the sound check to save a new stomp status to check the volume relatively to another sound), but now that I know that it is by choice let me say that IMHO it is a very wrong choice.


    I can provide many examples where this new behavior is worse... and I can't figure out not even one example where is better.
    Sometimes I still use the Browse Mode in some shows (because I made sounds when the Performance Mode didn't exist) and for those who need this behavior without the "two tap workaround" they can still use it and it acts as they want...


    I find more logic that in performance mode the five sounds are part of an unique performance, right?
    If I modify something the "E" appears and I don't like to lose those changes until I go to a new performance without saving...


    But maybe I'm writing too much... I don't have to teach you anything... It was the way I like the first time you included the performance mode and for me it was very new to think at a performance with five sounds instead of 5 separate preset.... Saving the 5 sounds together, etc
    After a while I got used to it and I found it very smart and useful. I was even talking to a collegue explaining the advantage of this new mode of thinking :)
    For me, now, is a step back...
    Sincerely,
    Carlo

    Can someone please confirm that with the new 2.2 there is still the difference between changing slot by hand or by foot?


    Can someone at Kemper please confirm that you are aware about how annoying it is in big stages and medium/big rehearsal situations?


    Thank you in advance,
    Carlo

    This didn't change in 2.2.


    The challenge is, how to distinguish between modifications of settings, which are intended to be temporary (e. g. switching rotary speed from slow to fast) and those, which you might want to maintain permanently (e. .g balancing the volumes of your slots within one performance).


    Before we didn't distinguish and all adjustments were kept as long as you didn't leave the performance. This led to unintended 'infections' by adjustments of temporary nature (rotary speed, delay mix, gain, and so on). For example a slot intended to start always with rotary speed slow, suddenly started with rotary speed fast, because it had accidentally been left that way. Even worse, if you stored the performance in order to maintain a few permanent adjustments, you would also have stored all temporary changes. This example slot would now always start with rotary speed fast instead of slow. I'm wondering, if you ever experienced that issue.


    As permanent changes require a store of the performance, which cannot be done remotely, we have now applied the following logic. Modifications can be done from both front panel or via MIDI, but as soon as the slot is changed via MIDI these modification are forgotten. This is basically the usual behaviour like moving to another performance or another rig in Browse Mode. Switching slots via MIDI follows the same logic now. Users intending permanent adjustments might be close to the frontpanel anyhow, because pushing the STORE button requires their physical presence. In that case slots should be switched manually using the left and right rig buttons and modications are kept until the performance is left. This is the practical approach for permanent adjustments.


    Should you still not buy into this concept, perhaps you could provide a concrete example: What is it, what you try to adjust remotely, want to maintain while staying within the current performance, but loose as soon as moving to another performance?

    Thank you Burkhard for the explanation... I perfectly understand the logic behind your choice.
    By the way, as I already mentioned, there are plenty of situation where this "new" behavior is uncomfortable...
    The only simple thing I'm asking is to have the same behavior by hand and by foot. I'd like to use my foot controller as it was been designed... as an extension that I can use while I have my hands busy. Nothing more...


    I think at your "new" logic as a "Concert Mode" (and this way I find it very smart and useful) and it is perfect if you use the KPA at home in your desk and the foot controller *ONLY* during concerts where everything is already prepared and tested in detail.
    Unfortunately real life is different...


    I'm a professional musician and I give you some example from my personal recent experience:


    - I play the first verse with a clean soft sound then I adjust the sound adding some effect (i.e. a tap delay and a little distortion) to follow the dynamic of drum and bass in the second verse. Then I play the chorus with a different slot and when I come back to the verse I recall the first sound... with no delay and distortion. Even if I rapidly turn on those two effects (but they can be more than two!) I will probably have the wrong tempo in that slot... so I need to act like a crazy dancer to recreate the same sound I just created a minute before! :)


    - I have the KPA few meters away from me and my floor controller near my monitor, where I play. Every adjustment I do during the rehearsal I have to save the performance to test it... but sometimes the change is not for better and I lose my previous setting just to try if a different thing is better in a particular section of a song.
    Before, If I didn't like the changes, there was no problem to remember every little adjustment....


    IMHO, if you can make this behavior switchable I'm sure will be much more convenient in big stages and some jam situations.


    Thank you for your answer, I really appreciate it.


    Regards,
    Carlo

    Quote from ballantine

    I play the first verse with a clean soft sound then I adjust the sound adding some effect (i.e. a tap delay and a little distortion) to follow the dynamic of drum and bass in the second verse. Then I play the chorus with a different slot and when I come back to the verse I recall the first sound... with no delay and distortion. Even if I rapidly turn on those two effects (but they can be more than two!) I will probably have the wrong tempo in that slot... so I need to act like a crazy dancer to recreate the same sound I just created a minute before!


    But - sorry - this is the typical behaviour of every programable device I've owned. As long as you don't save the new settings they're gone after switching to another sound. What's new to you (as a pro) about that?

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

    Quote from Kempermaniac


    But - sorry - this is the typical behaviour of every programable device I've owned. As long as you don't save the new settings they're gone after switching to another sound. What's new to you (as a pro) about that?


    There are a lot of new things with KPA, but the newest is probably the "performance mode" itself...
    - you can store (up to) 5 sounds together.
    - you can edit single slots of a performance and switch them without losing changes even if didn't store the performance
    - before 2.1 there was no difference... Switching by hand or by foot was the same. Now is different...


    These for me (as a pro) are new things...

    Perhaps planning your approach to a song ahead of time would serve you best. In your example, a 3rd slot would have the clean with stomps applied already.


    I don't know of any modeling pedal that works like you want...other than the KPA prior to the latest updates.


    I, like you, can see some value in slots retaining temporary changes until a new performance is selected.

    Quote from musicman65

    I don't know of any modeling pedal that works like you want...other than the KPA prior to the latest updates.


    I don't even know any machine that acts different if controlled by hand or through midi, do you? 8)


    The difference between the "Edit mode" and the "Concert mode", as well explained by Burkhard and Timo, is because they suppose that you need a different behavior when you are editing sounds and when you are playing on the stage... and I completely agree with them! :thumbup:


    What I'm saying is that, in big stages, you need to check and fine tune your sounds near the monitor and the foot controller... and even if you are not far away from the device you may find much comfortable to switch sounds by foot without stopping playing.
    Am I asking something weird? ?(

    I do understand the request related to a 'performance tempo' - meaning a TAP tempo, which is maintained across all slots within the current performance. This makes a lot of sense and is already on our list of things to do.


    Related to your other example I'm not convinced to be honest. It appears, you have already conceptually designed two different sounds: one with delay as well as distortion and another one without. Why not storing these in two different slots and loading these slots as required. You couldn't perform any fine-tuning via MIDI anyhow, e. g. adjusting Drive or Tone of a Muffin has to be done manually. I think, keeping a slot in the state as it had been left last time introduces a big element of unpredictability. Let's take a concrete example. I have been playing with the new 'Pedal Vinyl Stop' effect in order to pitch a solo down to 0 at its end - impressive effect by the way - which effectively means signal is completely muted in the toe position. If I switch and come back to this slot at a later time, I don't expect to start with a muted signal, but with the rig in it's initial state. I wouldn't even know, when I would have the time to reset the 'Pedal Vinyl Stop' into heel position otherwise.

    I didn't noticed the Pedal you are talking about... I'll give it a try (so this discussion is not completely useful :-))


    About your example: the physical status of a pedal should always be transferred to the new slot when switching sound. Otherwise I can have the pedal in heel position and the effect sounds like if it was in toe position... It doesn't make any sense in any case.
    If I have an effect that mute the sound in toe position and I have the physical pedal in that position IMHO is perfectly predictable that when I switch to that slot I'll not hear any sound.


    BTW, I give up...
    1) Of course I can make more sounds duplicating them with every combination of stomps I need (and that's what I do if I planned the song in every detail), but sometimes in clubs we improvise songs and medley jamming and inter-playing with each other... That is what I was referring with my example.


    2) Of course I need to be near the profiler to make adjustments, but I want to be in front of my monitor to check them and, as I said, maybe I don't want to save the changes I made because I don't like them.
    Now if I test the sound switching by hand (walking to the profiler and stopping playing), it's ok... If I touch my pedalboard I lose every change I made.


    I think that a switchable "sound check mode" where you can verify sounds switching them in front of the monitor it's a reasonable request.