Low range Volume Expression in FCB1010.....how can I adjust????

  • No, Sir. I am not trying to patronize you. I am just trying to bring your awareness to the fact that in the whole dispute about expression pedals and KPA you never, ever answered to any comment concerning the problem of inertia in pedals.


    Certainly inertia will never be cured by custom curves. So you can draw back on saying that it is a problem of others, of the manufacturers of those pedals. And would be right in saying so.


    I just stated it in the humble hope I might stir up your estimated attention to the idea of really pristine expression pedals made by the KEMPER company itself.


    I explicitly repeat again that is was never my intention to insult or patronize nither you nor your company.


    And now, Christoph, I have to prepare myself and my equipment for playing two festival gigs this weekend. So I won't read and certainly not answer any KEMPER-FORUM stuff before next week.


    sincerly
    Olaf

    www.audiosemantics.de
    I have been away for quite a while. A few years ago I sold my KPA and since then played my own small tube amp with a Bad Cat Unleash. Now I am back because the DI-profile that I made from my amp sounds very much convincing to me.

  • I can think of four aspects where an expression pedal can have too much of 'inertia'.


    1. Force caused by the weight of the pedal
    2. Force caused by the friction of the pedal
    3. Vitual force induced by a non-optimal controlling curve (solvable by curve)
    4. Lag by slow processing or heavy filtering on receiver side, often considered as 'inertia'


    I don't know where a problem is hidden here.
    I can tell many problems with expression pedals. Dead zones are a probem. Friction is a problem. Inertia not.
    No other forum member has picked up the inertia topic yet.

  • It should be clear that when I complain about expression pedals, I am talking about them being used to control the volume. For controlling other values I also agree that most marketed pedals are good enough.

    Quote

    I don't know where a problem is hidden here.

    It makes a big difference if you use the pedal to set a value during a silent moment or if you use it to create expressive volume changes within the sounds. Try this:

    • fast Derek Bailey like cut ups
    • tremoloes
    • fast violin swells
    • even simple crescendos can be awkward on some pedals
    • Another point, where friction is especially ugly is this: establish a broad, ambient-like sound layer and then try to just ever so slightly change the volume just a little bit. Friction in a standing pedal is much higher than when it is mooving. This leads to very ugly, bumpy volume changes.
    Quote

    No other forum member has picked up the inertia topic yet.

    So what? I do. Earlier you were an advocate of diagnostic A/B comparisons. Now you rely on mayorities?


    The PA at my gig at Saalfelden Jazz Festival was very good and at the beginning of the soundcheck the effects loop of the KPA was accidentally switched off. When I activated it again we all could clearly hear how much the signal is deteriorating with the use of the effects loop. So hooking up my HILTON pedal into the effects loop cannot be the ultimate solution to my (minority?) problem.

    www.audiosemantics.de
    I have been away for quite a while. A few years ago I sold my KPA and since then played my own small tube amp with a Bad Cat Unleash. Now I am back because the DI-profile that I made from my amp sounds very much convincing to me.

  • Well, here goes some very interesting tests I´ve just done with the FCB1010 and the Volume Exp Pedal issue.


    First of all, the Wah Exp works perfectly in its full range, no matter if you assign it to Exp. Pedal A or Exp.Pedal B.....works perfectly on both Exp. Pedals of the FCB.


    The Volume Exp. works incorrectly in both Exp. Pedal A and B...you only experiment volume change from the heel position (0) to less than half range (approx. 50).


    Well, if I program the FCB1010 (Uno Chip installed) and assign different MIDI values to the Volume Expression pedal range (cc# 7), here is what it happens:


    - When set to, as it should be, midi range from 0 to 127 (heel=0 and toe=127), you only experiment volume change from the heel position (0) to less than half range (approx. 50) as I said.Of course, the Vol. Exp Pedal values showed in the FCB leds goes from 0 to 127, so the MIDI values for the MIDI CC#7 are sent right from the FCB1010 to the Kemper.


    - When set to MIDI range from 0 to 50 (heel=0 and toe=50), you only experiment volume change from the heel position (0) to approx. 75% range (approx. 40).Value of 50 HAS THE SAME VOLUME THAN IN THE PREVIOS SETTING WITH 127.So, the full volume of the Vol Exp. Pedal when sends midi value of 127 and midi value of 50 IS THE SAME.I´ve tested it and recorded so I can graphically appreciate the volume wave in Reaper or Cubase.Again, the Vol. Exp Pedal values showed in the FCB leds goes from 0 to 50, so the MIDI values for the MIDI CC#7 are sent right from the FCB1010 to the Kemper.



    - When set to midi range from 0 to 10 (heel=0 and toe=10), you experiment volume change almost in full range, from the heel position (0) to toe position (10).BUT THE FULL VOLUME IS LOWER IN MIDI VALUE OF 10 THAN WHEN ASSIGNED TO 50, so there is a volume difference when the Volume Exp. Pedal is assigned to 50 or 127 than assigned to 10.Once more, the Vol. Exp Pedal values showed in the FCB leds goes from 0 to 10, so the MIDI values for the MIDI CC#7 are sent right from the FCB1010 to the Kemper.



    - When set to MIDI range from 0 to 40 (heel=0 and toe=40), you only experiment volume change from the heel position (0) to approx. 95% range, but is not a gradually, smooth change.....It´s abrupt, thu seems that is the best setting for working with the FCB1010 Volume Exp.Pedal.As usuall, the Vol. Exp Pedal values showed in the FCB leds goes from 0 to 40, so the MIDI values for the MIDI CC#7 are sent right from the FCB1010 to the Kemper.



    - When set to MIDI range from 50 to 127 (heel=50 and toe=127),you don´t experiment any volume change, that means that the volume is the same when the Volume Exp.Pedal sends a value of 50 than when sending a value of 127, no volume changing in the whole range of the Volume Exp. Pedal.That means that the Kemper only receive real volume changing between MIDI values of 0 to 50 (approx...maybe 40).At least in the MIDI #CC 7, wich is the Volume Pedal MIDI #CC.As always, the Vol. Exp Pedal values showed in the FCB leds goes from 50 to 127, so the MIDI values for the MIDI CC#7 are sent right from the FCB1010 to the Kemper.


    Well, hope this can helps to solve why the Volume Exp. Pedal doesn´t work properly in its full range in the Kemper, maybe someone with more knoledgment about MIDI and the Kemper can use this experiment to extract some useful conclusions.


    Mine is that, the best way for working with the FCB1010 Vol. Expression Pedal is to program that Pedal to send MIDI values from 0(heel) to 40 (toe), thu is not as smooth as it should be, at least seems to be volume change in the full expression pedal range.

    Proud Kemper+Axe FX II user.....yes, you can hook'em together, they WON'T explode.

  • Well, if I program the FCB1010 (Uno Chip installed) and assign different MIDI values to the Volume Expression pedal range (cc# 7), here is what it happens:

    Could you please confirm, that these tests are not related to Behringer FCB 1010 with Uno4Kemper chip, where the pedal ranges are fixed.

  • I have the UNO chip, not the Uno4Kemper, so I can program the pedal ranges.


    About the expression pedals, both work properly, both sends the 0-127 in it's full range (I also Exchanged the function between the A and B pedals, and wah works perfectly in both A and B and Volume doesn't work properly in none).


    The problem is, when you have the Volume Exp. Pedal programed to 0-127 range (standar) you experiment volume change when going from 0 to 50 approx......when the pedal sends MIDI values from 50-127, the volume is already full in the Kemper, and there is not any noticiable volume change.


    I also used MIdI-ox to check that both expression pedals send the MIdI values correctly , from 0-127 (heel-toe).


    So, as long as there is not volume changing in the Kemper when the expression pedal sends values over 50 (the kemper is already at full volume), I learned that programming the expression pedal to a range of MIdI values of 0-50 (heel-toe) you have a better control of the volume, but it is not a smooth volume change yet, is more abrupt, not so limear as it should be.


    So, resuming, the FCB1010 expression pedals work perfectly, both of them, sending the 0-127 values perfectly, but the kemper only experiment real volume changes when receiving values from 0 to 50 approx, so you have all the volume changing in less than half the expression pedal range.The wah works perfectly in both expression pedals, receiving correctly the 0-127 values and applying them perfectly to the Kemper Wah effect range, so there must be a problem in the Kemper with the midi values of the CC7 (volume pedal) and the real volume changing.


    At least, that's what I'm experimenting.....

    Proud Kemper+Axe FX II user.....yes, you can hook'em together, they WON'T explode.

  • Seems that the problem is not the FCB1010 or the Kemper, but the placement lf the Volume Pedal in the rig chain.


    I'm gonna test it a little bit and I'll confirm.

    Proud Kemper+Axe FX II user.....yes, you can hook'em together, they WON'T explode.

  • Thank you for looking into this.


    human perception in general is logarithmic


    and I think we will need different curve's for clean and distorted sounds.


    It seem's to me the kemper is interpreting the midi volume data linearly.

    Edited once, last by troynova ().

  • Seems that the problem is not the FCB1010 or the Kemper, but the placement lf the Volume Pedal in the rig chain.


    I'm gonna test it a little bit and I'll confirm.



    When you run a volume pedal in front of a distortion, it will stop increasing the volume but putting gain into the distortion.



  • The volume pedal is run by a perfect logarithmic curve.

  • The volume pedal is run by a perfect logarithmic curve.


    I am new to the FCB 1010 . Currently running the eureka prom. My volume pedal is acting this way also. ;(


    I went in and checked the values , I calibrated the volume pedal , a few times. Then I did a search and came upon this thread.


    Any updates to this situation ? Any suggestions ? I really wanted the volume pedal to work .... I don't see many threads complaining about this, so I assume this is not normal behavior.... I think I can still send this back...


    One other thought, I am not home to try this, but I have a mission kemper exp pedal I used for wah, can I use this to plug directly in the kemper to control volume ? Even if my FCB 1010 is plugged in, would it interfere or be a conflict ??????


    Thanks

  • Any updates to this situation ? Any suggestions ? I really wanted the volume pedal to work .... I don't see many threads complaining about this, so I assume this is not normal behavior.... I think I can still send this back...

    Some people had issues and have been able to improve the Behringer pedal behaviour by mechanically adjusting the position of the red LED, which is part of the optoelectrical element inside the Berhinger board, that reads out the printed foil.

  • One other thought, I am not home to try this, but I have a mission kemper exp pedal I used for wah, can I use this to plug directly in the kemper to control volume ? Even if my FCB 1010 is plugged in, would it interfere or be a conflict ??????

    A directly connected expression pedal will take over control as long as you put the MIDI volume pedal into a fixed position and leave it alone. It's a workaround.

  • Some people had issues and have been able to improve the Behringer pedal behaviour by mechanically adjusting the position of the red LED, which is part of the optoelectrical element inside the Berhinger board, that reads out the printed foil.


    Ahh, ok... For now I have my mission pedal so I am good, but that is good to know about the led !
    Thanks Burkhard !