The infamous "in the room" tone...

Sure, but every other modeller/amp has the in-the-room sound too when you play via a guitar cab - basically that's why it's called "amp-in-the-room"

You´re right Guitartone. Most people don´t know the difference between a cab-sound and a miked sound. And imho you´ll never get the same "feeling".

Quote from Guitartone

True, but no other modeller comes with a built in poweramp, and if you read the forums 99% of guitarists use their 'modeller' with a "FRFR".

http://www.thomann.de/de/dv_mark_multiamp.htm (sounds quite nice btw)

But the KPA definately sounds the best thru guitar cab (since cabdriver was introduced) - if that's what you mean
I use a hybrid solution btw... use a guitar cab on stage + inears. Without the cab something is missing, guess I need that cab-guitar-interaction-thingy

Tried the DV Mark Multiamp before buying the Kemper not in the same league in my opinion

Quote from mDan

But the KPA definately sounds the best thru guitar cab (since cabdriver was introduced) - if that's what you mean
I use a hybrid solution btw... use a guitar cab on stage + inears. Without the cab something is missing, guess I need that cab-guitar-interaction-thingy

I use that hybrid solution too, it's perfect for my needs: moving air and feedback from the cab, precision and definition through the IEMs. I also miss the interactive component playing without guitar cab.

Since playing with high end 'FRFR' cabs, before the CLR, before the Yamaha DXR, actually since I used the 1st gen. Atomic devices with a Pod the 'sound in the room' topic hasn't been of any importance to me.
Here is why: I don't think there's so much of a difference between an amp in the room sound and a miked amp in the room sound.
It's still a paradigm drift but:
If you have a good dedicated amplification device for the profiler you'll get 100% satisfactory results.

I play my power head into a marshall 2x12, right next to all my tube amps. It sounds real and fantastic. I did try my power head into some studio monitors (NS-10s) didn't sound as real to me, just my opinion. There's something about a guitar cab to me. I would think a lot of people used FRFR, because there was no self powered profilers out there. IMHO I think simple cave men,like myself, (small bar gigs , no sound man or micing) old tube NOS plug and play guys, are going to use their guitar cabs IMHO. a FRFR just seems weird to me. IMHO

Quote from Guitartone

True, but no other modeller comes with a built in poweramp, and if you read the forums 99% of guitarists use their 'modeller' with a "FRFR".

Well, quite a few companies have historically offered modeling amps historically. A few of which were actually very good. But to the general topic, yes if one prefers the resonance and generally poor off axis response of guitar cabinets there is a sure fire way to get it. I must add though that in my general experience I haven't liked the KPA as much into my Trademark 60 nor partnered with an EHX Magnum 44 fed to a VHT Special 1X12 as compared to direct. One might argue that the cabs/amps were the weaker links in these chains, but they sound very pretty darn good with my Digitech GSP1101 or ZOOM G3.

Quote from mDan

Sure, but every other modeller/amp has the in-the-room sound too when you play via a guitar cab - basically that's why it's called "amp-in-the-room"

I have to disagree here. Line6 never had the great 'in the room' tone. 'In the room' tone is that extra bit of depth and fullness that you get from a great tube amp through a 4x12 (or other multi-speaker cab). It's due to a lot of different factors, including the filtering that occurs with multiple speakers, listening to the cab off-axis, and the reflected frequencies that bounce off the walls in your room. With a typical Line 6 high gain, it still sounds pretty bad through a tube power amp and guitar cab, imo.

Quote from Will_Chen

Well, quite a few companies have historically offered modeling amps historically. A few of which were actually very good. But to the general topic, yes if one prefers the resonance and generally poor off axis response of guitar cabinets there is a sure fire way to get it. I must add though that in my general experience I haven't liked the KPA as much into my Trademark 60 nor partnered with an EHX Magnum 44 fed to a VHT Special 1X12 as compared to direct. One might argue that the cabs/amps were the weaker links in these chains, but they sound very pretty darn good with my Digitech GSP1101 or ZOOM G3.

I completely agree. The day I was able to leave guitar cabs behind was the best day of my gear life (well, second to getting my KPA!). Guitar cabs are so one dimensional. Anyone who is still getting better in the room tone with guitar cabs is not using a good FRFR system, or has it set up or EQ'd incorrectly, IMHO. I ran my AxeFX and first Kemper (18 months ago) with a tube power amp and guitar cab, and while both sounded good, they didn't sound great. Now that I use FRFR, it sounds amazing.

In a 40'x40' practice space, i have both option set up and ready: a return into a nice tube head with a 4x12 greenbacks cab; and a pair of cheap 1x12 monitors with a cheap old power amp. I don't even turn on the tube/cab option anymore. They both have that exceptional Kemper playing responsiveness. But the cab option has less sonic options. It always sounds like THAT cab, no matter which rig. Whereas the monitor options lets me "play them all". And the monitor option is more satisfying when playing with the band in the room, because everyone hears the guitar better. No need to struggle with blasting a cab to be heard. And the monitors seem to be able to handle more low end in case needed, not that I ever really need it.

I have to disagree. Any time a guitar is run through a FRFR cab that I've heard, the highs are coming out of a horn, which is not the same audibly as a guitar cab "in the room".

That being said, I'm not sure that's all too important. Either a. you are playing in a band with a p.a. and you want the cab/mic's as part of the profile to fully utilize the magic of the KPA or b. you just need to have the best guitar sound onstage or in your room. In the case of b., I've found that running the kemper into the power amp in/fx return of a tube amp and just eq'ing the KPA output and/or profiles to get it to sound a good as possible. I bounce back and forth with turning the cab sim off/on because depending on the tube amp, whether it's a combo or head/cab, you can adjust it to your liking. Sometimes I leave the cab sim off and others on. The KPA is so tweakable that you can eq it to work either way. I've been way less happy running the KPA into a powered p.a. speaker or dedicated FRFR powered speaker (Atomic). To me, it sounds very digital when it's not going through the power section of a real tube amp, plus the dynamic punch is way better with tubes. But always, if I'm going through a p.a., I'm using the main direct outs and just using the monitor as I state above. This setup freakin rocks.

Maybe a dumb question, but I want to make sure before I start buying things:

Got my Kemper yesterday, and right now it's running through a pair of 8" M-Audio Audiophiles on my desk. If I'm happy with the feel and "in the room"ness coming from them, can I expect a better pair of FR speakers (Probably ELX 112s or something similar) to have that amount of feel as well?

Quote from Lokasenna

If I'm happy with the feel and "in the room"ness coming from them, can I expect a better pair of FR speakers (Probably ELX 112s or something similar) to have that amount of feel as well?

Yes, I think you can expect that.

... but I know a guitar player SO USED with miked amp that, on stage he always used his amp miked thru a FRFR solution .

... his amp is a .... DUMBLE ( honest amp ... ) , and this guitar player is Larry Carlton.

I think that "this" guy doesn't sound bad at all ...

He starts from the fact that finally people are used to ALWAYS listen "miked amp" : on records and on stages ( may be not small stages without P.A ).

I've try both way ( amp cab and FRFR ) and honestly the difference doesn't hurt me so much. I can live with (more difficult to live NOW without my Kemper ... )

Hb

I think Larry Carlton uses/used the FRFR cabs onstage for fx (and perhaps acoustic guitar) only. There's always sound from his Dumble's (or Bludo's these days) cabinet onstage.

Quote from Boanerges

I think Larry Carlton uses/used the FRFR cabs onstage for fx (and perhaps acoustic guitar) only. There's always sound from his Dumble's (or Bludo's these days) cabinet onstage.

Yes, you're correct :

1°) "There's always sound from his Dumble's (or Bludo's these days) cabinet onstage" : BUT "he" said that this is NOT his MAIN sound :

2°) ... coz, as you mention : all the effects are applied in the mixing board and FRFR section which becomes his MAIN sound.

For sure probably having BOTH solutions -FRFR and Amp cab- is a "tricky" ( and interesting ?! ) solution and "I" can't speak of a PURE FRFR solution

Hb

I guess this is just another W/D/W setup. What goes through the FRFR-speakers are just the FX, the amp tone comes dry out of the Dumble/Bludo. That's what I read he was doing a couple of years ago, at least, and lots of other guitarists do it this way too, with regular guitar cabs or FRFR speakers.

The amp tone through FRFR-speakers is a different thing altogether and must not be confused with this kind of w/d/w setup

I think something that's missing from this discussion is that while the trademark sound of a microphone does leave quite a bit of a footprint on the tone, often you can get much closer to the real cabinet's sound by blending 2 microphones. Most of my favorite IR's are dual mic'ed. I agree that I prefer the tone of the cab itself vs. a mic'ed cab, but with proper shooting of a dual mic IR, I honestly find it hard to tell the difference.

Also, most FRFR solutions are designed to have less directionality, whereas a 12" guitar speaker is quite directional. This will obviously sound different in a room where the sound is reflecting off the walls, floor, and ceiling. But I think once everything is EQ'ed nicely, neither one is better than the other.

I prefer the simulated cab/FRFR approach. Generally the gear is more portable and more consistent across a space than a real cab. There is no need for mic'ing. It all falls back to the cab/mic simulation you use. Similarly, the "real cab" sound depends on the quality of the real cab/speakers.