KPA: too much twang?

  • Am I the only one who notices an excess of that very particular high end signature at the KPA outputs? In fact it's not necessarily "high end", it really resembles what is commonly known as "twang" and associated with telecasters, for lack of a better description. I have tried to determine the offending frequency or frequencies and failed miserably. Lately I've been comparing the original amp tone with the KPA profile and can't seem for the life of me to make them sound close enough that the KPA turns out as inspiring as the original. Not sure if I'm getting the idea across here, I know what I'm saying is quite subjective, but I'm hoping someone else feels the same and, better yet, has worked out a solution for the "problem". I'm putting the KPA through a Yamaha DXR10 for monitoring if that helps.


    Now don't get me wrong, I love the KPA and have no plans of selling it, it's a great solution for having decent amp sounds with a lightweight setup and small footprint, but I will honestly say that it's not nearly as inspiring as the real thing precisely because of its high end content.

  • Am I the only one who notices an excess of that very particular high end signature at the KPA outputs? In fact it's not necessarily "high end", it really resembles what is commonly known as "twang" and associated with telecasters, for lack of a better description. I have tried to determine the offending frequency or frequencies and failed miserably. Lately I've been comparing the original amp tone with the KPA profile and can't seem for the life of me to make them sound close enough that the KPA turns out as inspiring as the original. Not sure if I'm getting the idea across here, I know what I'm saying is quite subjective, but I'm hoping someone else feels the same and, better yet, has worked out a solution for the "problem". I'm putting the KPA through a Yamaha DXR10 for monitoring if that helps.


    Now don't get me wrong, I love the KPA and have no plans of selling it, it's a great solution for having decent amp sounds with a lightweight setup and small footprint, but I will honestly say that it's not nearly as inspiring as the real thing precisely because of its high end content.

    for removing the "TWANG " try to lower the parameter DEFINITION in slot AMPLIFIER

  • of that very particular high end signature at the KPA outputs?


    let me be blunt:


    The Profiler has no signature sound.
    Many pros with 'golden ears' confirmed that the profile is sounding just like the amp fed into it, even analysers show that the high end is spot on.


    I have good monitors here with very 'hi-res' speakers for the high frequencies - and I love the high end I'm getting.
    So it seems you are either comparing amp in the room sound (often indirect and off-axis) with the miked sound (very direct, maybe even on axis)
    or
    maybe your speakers add something to the high end.
    aren't your speakers meant to be used as live monitors/small PA?


    live monitors are no substitute to studio monitors, and in my experience:
    the better the speaker - the better the Profiler sounds.

  • I would use a highpass or shelving equal to cut those highs and see if the amps sound more alike. Trying to eq the twang out will just take you further away from what you are going for. The definition has limited success but seems to shape the sound as well so it may not be worth it.


    Maybe we are talking about a different twang but I find it more apparent in high gain profiles. The cleans and some crunch do not really show this characteristic. There seems to be a spectrum of frequencies between the high limit of the mic'd speaker and the high limit of the frfr that comes out. I cannot really explain it either, I just know tweaking the sound kills the intended amp sound more than it eliminates the twang so I prefer to just chop it out or choose another cab sim that works better.

  • Thanks for the replies guys, although I didn't mention it I did consider both of the apointed factors as possible causes for the high end response anomalies I'm experiencing.


    I always mic my amps off axis. Always. I don't like on-axis miking precisely because of the excessive high end, and try to mic my amps as close as possible to the angle I hear them from, which is usually the mic pointed perpendicularly at the cone of the speaker. In pursue of better response from the KPA I went as far as trying to compensate for the presence bump of the SM57 around 6.8kHz using the Studio Equalizer, without much success I might add.


    The other reason why I might be experiencing these weird frequencies could be my DXR10, which would be too bad since I really can't afford to get anything else at the moment. However one thing that got me thinking I'd like to make the KPA work with the Yamaha was, *if* the DXR10 has a similar high end response to that of a typical FOH PA, I very much would like to make it work with the KPA (sounding closer to the original amp) as this would mean the same sound would come out from FOH.

  • Have you tried it with some other speakers than the DXR's to see if the frequency still exists in the sound? PA speakers aren't really "FRFR" in reality compared to good studio monitors.

    I've tried the KPA with a QSC K10 and a pair of low budget studio monitors (Event 20/20), and to the best of my perception the high end weirdness is still there.

    I would use a highpass or shelving equal to cut those highs and see if the amps sound more alike. Trying to eq the twang out will just take you further away from what you are going for. The definition has limited success but seems to shape the sound as well so it may not be worth it.


    Maybe we are talking about a different twang but I find it more apparent in high gain profiles. The cleans and some crunch do not really show this characteristic. There seems to be a spectrum of frequencies between the high limit of the mic'd speaker and the high limit of the frfr that comes out. I cannot really explain it either, I just know tweaking the sound kills the intended amp sound more than it eliminates the twang so I prefer to just chop it out or choose another cab sim that works better.

    By your post I feel you know exactly what I'm talking about, seems I'm not crazy after all... Well at least I'm not the only one :p
    I've been messing with the definition and pick parameters in the amp block and have reached more or less the same conclusions, the definition parameter can be useful within certain limits, the pick parameter seems to take out too much of the amp character, I need to give them a little more tries with fresh ears though. Thanks for the shelf suggestion, will give that a try as well.

  • I always mic my amps off axis. Always.


    the question is:


    how does your amp -> cab -> mic -> Profiler -> monitors/speakers


    sound compared to


    Profiler (with profile of your setup) -> monitors/speakers


    you have to take the sound of the amp makes in the room out of the equation. only the mic sound is of interest.
    also, if you don't like the bump the SM57 has, maybe it's not the right mic for you.
    nothing good can come from working against the sound of a mic. you choose a mic for it's properties, not regardless and try to eq that character out. ;)

  • Unfortunately I can't compare the sound of the miked amp against the profile as I don't have an isolated room for it, but that's great advice and exactly what I'm looking for - solving my problem without spending a lot. A new microphone might just be the ticket, I have a few that I'll probably give a try in my next profiling sessions, thinking about the CAD E200 and Peavey reference microphone.

  • I don't if it's the same as , the twang you're talking about, but when I tried out the DXR10, It seemed to accentuate some mid/hi frequencies, that made the Strat-out-Phase strat sound appear more prominent. I didn't find this unlikable, just not as accurate. And as I said before this bump would probably make it cut through on stage better.

  • I've tried the KPA with a QSC K10 and a pair of low budget studio monitors (Event 20/20), and to the best of my perception the high end weirdness is still there.

    By your post I feel you know exactly what I'm talking about, seems I'm not crazy after all... Well at least I'm not the only one :p
    I've been messing with the definition and pick parameters in the amp block and have reached more or less the same conclusions, the definition parameter can be useful within certain limits, the pick parameter seems to take out too much of the amp character, I need to give them a little more tries with fresh ears though. Thanks for the shelf suggestion, will give that a try as well.

    Since you seem more concerned with getting a specific amp sound rather than just dialing in your own sound I would stick to a shelving eq or studio eq that can lower a specific range In the top end that reduces what you don't want and then touch the definition to taste so that you don't deviate to far from your sound.


    Also since it sounds like you have isolation for your profilingi would use this to your advantage and run an output so you can try and dial in the Mic sound to what you like instead of capturing an amp at specific settings. Maybe mixing mic's will get you there too. Lots of good bids on YouTube for that. One I liked was mixing the rear of an open cab with an off axis center in front.

    My old K10 was harsh in the high end. I don't get the same from my CLR.

    I get pretty much the same highs on both the clr and dxr while the clr tends to have more cab punch feel since it technically is a coaxial Version of a guitar speaker.


    Basically what I'm getting at is I'm still knocking down highs on some higher gain profiles with both my speakers so we are probably describing a different high end issue.

  • Am I correct in saying the CLR doesn't have a horn and most other FRFR (hate that word) do have horns?


    Deny - Have you recently changed guitars or started using new pickups?
    Are you saying the Kemper makes all your guitars sound Teleish?
    I noticed in Pete Thorn's review of his Gil Yaron Les Paul, he said a great vintage Les Paul should sound like a Tele on steroids...I found that interesting.


    I also got a very interesting comment from a top pro (tube amp freak) yesterday whilst he was demoing the Power Rack.
    He said the Kemper has a beautiful "sizzle" on the high end that he loves...he didn't say "fizzle", he said "sizzle".
    I think, IMO, that the 'sizzle' is part of Kempers signature tone (a good thing, not a bad thing), just like a Dumble or a Trainwreck has that little something that other amps don't have.

  • Too much twang? Never! Not possible!! Heresy!!! :D:D


    How did your profile sound during the refining process?


    Were you using a single mic? What was the mic distance? Have you tried different mic positions with the Kemper? Have you tried a different mic? Is it possible that with the mic so far off-axis that it was pointing to the floor/wall/corner and picking up reflections that were causing phase issues?


    Try lowering High Shift in the Cab Block? A little goes a long way. Also try adjusting/lowering 'Character' in the Cab block.


    Also try changing the Cab and see if someone else's cab get's rid of the 'twang'.

  • I've noticed some exaggeration of very high frequencies on gainy sounds. I don't know if it has something to do with the KPA itself, but I don't think so. What helped me was a Studio EQ in the X-Slot with an extreme cut @ 22.000 Hz.

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

  • hi! I add the same feeling while profiling my JTM30 a few weeks ago, profiles where soo twangy, but I loved it , the twang was not so intense on the original amp , but the gain course did expand it a lot on gain range not covered by the original amp's gain. I don't really bother about too much twang , but the KPA is really good for capturing and emphasizing the natural twang of your amp. Best solution is to go for another cab, even if your love your own profile's cabs try to find one that match it very close but with less twang.


    Do you play on single coils ? It's so easy to get some twang with them , while it's much more complicated to make a humbucker reach the twang territory.

  • CLR has a horn. Here is what a typical coaxial speaker looks like:


    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/CT0c6bV.jpg]



    Edited: The CLR uses a component set up where there is a tweeter with an attached horn suspended over the driver in the center. See my post below for pictures.



    The next picture is a clestion coaxial. Looks like a conventional speaker at first in the picture but the cone is actually raised up over the driver and houses a tweeter.


    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/K9xtqMO.png]