It's not just you. Since the 2.2 update my clean sense is all the way down and I still get clipping. On top of that the noise gate never fully engages. Time to downgrade...
Stupid Clean Sense and most probably Stupid me...
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Is the red LED on your input flashing? Turn down clean sense.
If the red LED on your output is flashing, turn down rig volume.
Is your gain at zero? Turn down the gain...
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Is your gain at zero? Turn down the gain...
But what if you want your profile to have more gain ?
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But what if you want your profile to have more gain ?
Clean sense is a relative volume boost applied to "clean profiles" (gain less than 12 o'clock). You should not be using it to set gain levels. If one is seeking no clipping (as the poster claimed to be hearing clipping), the only absolutely clean setting (especially with hotter pickups) is the gain knob on 0. When you profile an amp and set it to "clean" the gain will always come back at 0. If you are hearing any breakup with the gain at zero, either your clean sense is too high distorting (soft clipping, the KPA is smart enough to avoid the uglies) the input or you're distorting (again soft clipping) the output which can be controlled by lowering the amp level or lowering the cabinet volume.
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Sorry I thought we were talking about distortion profiles
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At a gig I did last night my red light was on all night but the signal was perfectly clean
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As Raoul said CK has confirmed that only the thresholds of the LEDs have been altered. I get a constant solid orange with red flashing on hard strokes but there is absolutely no change in levels. I compared it via my audiointerface and had the same levels without any clipping going on.
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I dont like the new behavior of the input LED, so I decided to downgrade and hope that the next version works better.
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nightlight, Will_Chen, et all, thank you for clarifying!! So it was a combination of adjusting the cabinet volume and amp volume. I brought the amp volume down to 11 o'clock-ish. The gain was already zero. The cabinet volume I dropped 2 db. It's much cleaner now!! I'm still walking a tight rope with the s/pdif clip.. it's not but it wants too LOL
The analog outs are great..the board looks fine at -6 db max.. tracks sound pretty good. It's just about time for the reamp lesson but I'm gonna jam a bit.Thanks again! I think I've climbed the mountain peak and ready for the downhill run now. Loving my Kemper!!
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I think ultimately everyone should stop worrying about a glimmer of red until they understand the tonal implications. So set your gain to 0 and start strumming hard while adjusting clean sense. Use your ears to identify the threshold where clean sense starts digital clipping and see how the LED responds at that setting. Try chugging mutes and open chords and single notes. Now, turn up the gain and see how a digitally-clipping input sounds when distorted. Then, turn down clean sense and compare the LED behavior and tone.
Words on a forum won't likely help you. You need to either watch a video or do the above experiment yourself to get a grasp of the tonal impact and where the true "danger zone" in relation to the LED behavior lies.
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Would'nt it be much more simple to state red input led = digital clipping on input, as on any audio/digital device of the market, instead this whole procedure of hearing/seeing calibration ?
Or maybe I do not understand that you all mean that it's simply impossible to digitally clip the input converter at all ? -
...on my Saffire Pro 40, red indicates 0db
Like stated before. Trust your ears, you will be able to hear digital clipping. -
I think ultimately everyone should stop worrying about a glimmer of red until they understand the tonal implications. So set your gain to 0 and start strumming hard while adjusting clean sense. Use your ears to identify the threshold where clean sense starts digital clipping and see how the LED responds at that setting. Try chugging mutes and open chords and single notes. Now, turn up the gain and see how a digitally-clipping input sounds when distorted. Then, turn down clean sense and compare the LED behavior and tone.
Words on a forum won't likely help you. You need to either watch a video or do the above experiment yourself to get a grasp of the tonal impact and where the true "danger zone" in relation to the LED behavior lies.
It's really not about pushing things to the limit, that's completely unnecessary. The Kemper doesn't need careful input gain staging to sound good. Take a distorted profile (probably with compression set to 0 would be best), any distorted profile with the gain higher than noon. Play it and note the volume. Turn the gain to 0. Play. Are the volumes the same? If the gain at 0's volume is lower relative to the gain up at noon+ raise the clean sense, if the gain at 0's volume is higher relative to the gain up at noon+ lower the clean sense, and if the gain at 0's volume is the same as the gain up at noon+ don't touch the clean sense. Now lock it and don't touch it. When you switch guitars, do it again. Save each input config so you can quickly reference them when you change guitars rather than going through the exercise again.
Seriously, the input led is for quick reference only. All you guys are really obsessing over nothing as the clean sense isn't like the input trim you had to use on older digital devices to set proper gain staging. It really is intended to balance the volume differences between clean and dirty profiles.
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Would'nt it be much more simple to state red input led = digital clipping on input, as on any audio/digital device of the market, instead this whole procedure of hearing/seeing calibration ?
Or maybe I do not understand that you all mean that it's simply impossible to digitally clip the input converter at all ?Personally, I think it would be somewhat poor design for a device like this to allow a device to distort it's own AD/DA converters. No reason not to strap in a soft limiter to stop it. But the bigger question would be do you actually hear something undesirable or are you worried about a "what if"? Like I mentioned, I do not believe the clean sense should be viewed like the old school input trim required for good AD/DA. It is meant to balance the volume between clean and distorted profiles.
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Like I mentioned, I do not believe the clean sense should be viewed like the old school input trim required for good AD/DA. It is meant to balance the volume between clean and distorted profiles.
If you're right, then I do understand my misunderstanding
But, then a clear technical statement about it by the Kemper team would be appreciated, to go further than "belief"...
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If you're right, then I do understand my misunderstanding
But, then a clear technical statement about it by the Kemper team would be appreciated, to go further than "belief"...
Why would they need to further state what is already clearly stated in the manual? From page 19-20 of Kemper Profiler Basics. Have you actually read the manual?
QuoteDisplay MoreClean Sense
Different types of guitars produce different output levels depending on their pickups and string gauge: for
example, humbucker pickups generate higher voltages compared to single coils, and active guitars generate
even hotter signal levels. If you feel that clean sounds are either very loud or very soft compared to
distorted sounds, you can adjust “Clean Sense” to a level where clean sounds have the same perceived loudness
as distorted sounds. “Clean Sense” determines the volume of clean sounds, but not the way the amp
or the effects are driven. A low level guitar output stays cleaner; a hot guitar will still distort more easily.Extremely hot guitars can generate unwanted distortion, also indicated by a red Input LED. To prevent this,
turn down “Clean Sense” a bit.Distortion Sense
Distortion Sense should normally stay at zero (middle) position. Every rig will react as if you have plugged
your guitar to the original amplifier.If you feel that your guitar tends to drive the distortion too hot (or too soft) for the majority of preset rigs,
then calibrate your guitar by adjusting “Distorted Sense” accordingly.✔✔Note: Clean Sense is not a simple input gain; you will notice that it does not affect the gain of a distorted
sound. Distortion Sense is also not a simple booster, as it does not affect the gain of clean sounds. Neither
of these parameters colours the sound.The input section is locked by default. The settings will be relevant for every rig or performance until you
decide to unlock it. If you unlock this section, the input settings will be individually saved and recalled per
rig. Alternatively, you can leave the input section locked, and create local presets for individual guitars. You
can then switch between these presets independently of switching rigs.For example: if you want to use different guitars, you can create a customized local preset for each. When
you switch guitars, simply select the respective local input preset, and the rest of the rig will remain unchanged.
Remember: the input section is locked by default, therefore changing rigs will not affect it. -
In the manual you quote, when one reads :
QuoteExtremely hot guitars can generate unwanted distortion, also indicated by a red Input LED. To prevent this,
turn down “Clean Sense” a bit.even if clean sense is not an input trim, one may admits it's looks like strongly, with such a sentence...
Anyway, it's not the main concern :
Now with clean sense at -12dB I still got red light...Does it mean I have "unwanted distortion" I can't solve ?
No, it's red because threshold have changed in the new firmware...(And so even the manual is wrong now...)
We only ask why that change, and if it's possible to go backwards on that change because it's so confusing... -
if you boost clean sense too high, you will get clipping with gain at 0 (EDIT: for reference, I had to set it quite high to get clearly audible clipping, and my input LED was COMPLETELY red, not just on the attack of hard strumming). i'm not sure what exactly is clipping - as noted above, clean sense is not a simple gain stage - i imagine it occurs AFTER the A/D converters.
it is not a nasty, hard digital clipping. in fact it almost sounds musical. A very mild clipping here would likely be completely unnoticeable in a medium or high gain tone.
lohworm, if you are concerned about tone degradation, i would make a copy of your favorite rig/patch, and raise the gain but reduce your guitar's volume knob until the input LED never hits red. Then compare the original patch with your guitar's volume knob maxed out vs. the cloned patch with higher gain when reducing guitar volume to compensate. i doubt you'll be able to tell the difference. note: different guitar volume pot settings CAN have an effect on the tone (which is why some people wire treble bleeds into their guitar electronics), try to roll off as little as possible - just so you are more comfortable with the color of the input LED. I wouldn't go lower than 7.5.
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OK, I give up this time...
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even if clean sense is not an input trim, one may admits it's looks like strongly, with such a sentence...
The difference (and the reason why CS is not a gain trimmer) is that changing CS' value will not affect heavily distorted sounds, like a real trimmer would instead.HTH
