enhanced features for monitor/master EQ

    Please help me to understand:


    In what situation will I need a parametric eq (maybe even 6 band) and use it to to make a qualified correcion to the sound of an FRFR speaker by judging the overall sound using my guitar sound as a reference?


    What speaker is it? Where does it come from? What has it been used for prior to that?

    It would be a nice feature to have, but, if it's not included in the kpa itself we can get 31 band eq units quite cheaply anyway. Sometimes quicker to get the hardware than wait for it to appear in software. After 17yrs messing with digital guitar fx gear I've come to the conclusion that the "all-in-one" box is still a dream. Right now it's "great" and "good enough", but, if kpa tech was vst/stand-alone computer based we wouldn't be having this conversation. A few clicks to add a 31band eq and you'd be ready to tweak to suit your speakers. :rolleyes:

    Quote from ckemper

    Please help me to understand:


    In what situation will I need a parametric eq (maybe even 6 band) and use it to to make a qualified correcion to the sound of an FRFR speaker by judging the overall sound using my guitar sound as a reference?


    What speaker is it? Where does it come from? What has it been used for prior to that?

    I think you misunderstood the intention. It´s not about making changes to the primary FOH signal or a speaker system that also runs other stuff than your guitar signal. It´s just meant mainly as a change to the monitor out for the stage monitoring, while the master out goes out to the FOH without any eq changes. I think we should also agree upon the fact that "FRFR" is a myth because of all the theoretical stuff like "Fletcher/Munson" that has been discussed before. There are just speakers which do the job a little better than others concerning guitar signals. On the other hand there are those active speakers which aim more into the club PA range like the JBL EONs with huge bass response, which sounds great for Electronic music or drums. They just do not sound good with guitars only without some EQing. But unlike the typical usage of EQ, where broad Q factors sound more natural, you often need rather narrow Q factors here.


    I would love the idea of just extending the studio EQ a little bit and using it on the monitor out: Even 4 fully parametric bands with high and low shelf with asjustable Q would be really great and totally sufficient for me.

    Quote

    Please help me to understand:


    In what situation will I need a parametric eq (maybe even 6 band) and use it to to make a qualified correcion to the sound of an FRFR speaker by judging the overall sound using my guitar sound as a reference?


    What speaker is it? Where does it come from? What has it been used for prior to that?


    My personal example is an FRFR stereo combo amp I own. Its a Motion Sound KP500sn 500w stereo amp with 2 12" Delta Elite speakers and 4 Ferrous Fluid horns. It sounds quite good playing prerecorded music through it but has a noticeable hump in the upper mids that the amp's tone controls don't fully address. I can correct with an external eq between it and the KPA and make all my profiles sound much closer to my studio monitors. The correction isn't complex but can't be made by fixed EQ controls. A 4 band parametric is all that is needed in this example. 6 would be better.


    I do not adjust the EQ just by listening to my profiles. I compare my monitor amp to my studio monitors and adjust until my favorite profiles translate well on the FRFR amp and sound similar to the studio monitors. The result is a much better tone on all profiles than the uncorrected tone....and much closer to what is sent to FOH.


    Monitoring is always a compromise for me. I require portability and reasonable price. An EQ won't fix a horrible speaker but a good mid level FRFR can be improved greatly.


    Thanks CK for your interest in how we might utilize an improved monitor EQ. I hope I have explained why it would work well for those of us using the average FRFR speaker solution.


    bd

    Quote from Karl

    if it's not included in the kpa itself we can get 31 band eq units quite cheaply anyway

    I do not want to put for example 300 euros to Behringer Ultrcurve DEQ 2496 for that purpose if it is possible to get with KPA firmware.
    And there isnt cheaper units for proper use as far as I know.



    To CK my explanation is here to be understood:


    Equipment:


    A) Two Atomic Reactors in stereo
    B) Yamaha DXR10 -tools needed for compensate room acoustics
    C) Mesa 20/20 guitar poweramp > reqular guitar cabs in stereo


    Reasons to have better output eq;
    A) I know those Atomics are FRFR -but they sound really good when compensate
    B) With Yamaha it is about correlation of room acoustics in a bad circumstances (you maybe have to put it near to corner in a small place)
    C) With guitar setup with cab off in KPA there is nice to have exactly tuned the sounds as wanted


    In all those cases I have experiment existing output eq far too limited.


    And as tylerhb stated: even 4 fully parametric bands with high and low shelf with asjustable Q
    would be really great and totally sufficient.

    Quote from ckemper

    Please help me to understand:


    In what situation will I need a parametric eq (maybe even 6 band) and use it to to make a qualified correcion to the sound of an FRFR speaker by judging the overall sound using my guitar sound as a reference?


    What speaker is it? Where does it come from? What has it been used for prior to that?


    A proper way to fine tune any active FFR speakers used with the Kemper for stage monitoring is to send pink noise into the return of the loop, bypass del/rev, and place a measuring
    mic at your listening position and use a FFT measuring system like SMAART or Systune to see the freq response of the active speaker.
    You can even get cheaper RTA measuring tools that works for your iPhone like Audio Tools….
    If the KPA had a more eq option on the monitor output, then it would be much more easy to get a better stage sound without having to add a eq device between the KPA´s monitor output and the active FFR monitor.
    This way the guitarist will get a better sound onstage, and the FOH guy get a L/R main mix without any eq….
    Then everybody´s happy….. :)

    Kemper Stage, KPA head, Remote, JH Audio Lola IEM, Shure PSM 900 wireless System, L-Acoustics 108P active FRFR monitor.



    I am aware of the wishes.


    In the perfect world the profiler would offer a global eq with
    Lowcut and Highcut with selectable slope
    Lowshelf and Highshelf with variable slope or Q
    2 to 4 peak eq's full parametric.


    This is quite a monster with 16 to 22 parameters.
    How have we survived on stage for half a century without this, how in the recording studio?
    How can I tame this monster in a live situation, where I have to adjust my sound to the circumstance in a limited time?
    Do you care about the sound of your fellow musicians, that go through the same PA or monitors? What is their solution?

    Well, if I got the last posts right they're not referring to PA but rather to personal monitoring. Furthermore, and again provided I got it right, it's not a matter of adjusting the monitor response with respect to the stage/room but to make the monitor amplitude response flatter in itself, regardless the place it's located.
    Of course the room will affect the overall sound, but this would not be a reason for choosing less linear monitors (because the two non-linearities would sum with each other). So, attempting at making any "FRFR" monitor more linear appears to make sense.


    As for musicians having survived on stages till now w/o the need for linear sounds, well ours is the first era guitar players use a digital reproduction of a real sound on stage, so conditions do have changed now! (And you're one of the responsible people :))
    It might be objected that keyboard players have been using more or less linear cabs since forever not caring too much about sound fidelity; well, this is a different pair of shoes: a synth doesn't try and sound as a real instrument, hence fidelity is not an issue. But, if we agree on the idea that the Profiler attempts at faithfully reproducing a digitalized real rig, suddenly fidelity becomes an issue. It's like listening to a recorded rock concert through a guitar cab rather than through a high-end hi-fi system: the better the system, the more faithfully the profile will sound.


    :)


    My Roland VG99 has this but I would prefer the better amp tones of the KPA!


    Quote


    This is quite a monster with 16 to 22 parameters.
    How have we survived on stage for half a century without this, how in the recording studio?


    No disrespect but we didn't have widespread use of devices that mimic the sounds of real instruments like the KPA does. Also, the bar has been raised. We expect better options and monitoring that is more authentic and hi-fi. Why should we settle for less?


    Quote


    How can I tame this monster in a live situation, where I have to adjust my sound to the circumstance in a limited time?


    I don't want to readjust my monitoring speakers for the room. I only want to correct them to sound closer to more neutral. The room is the room, whether a guitar amp or modeling/profiler with FRFR is used.


    Quote


    Do you care about the sound of your fellow musicians, that go through the same PA or monitors? What is their solution?


    My fellow musicians use traditional amps. They don't adjust them for the room. They are close mic'd or direct line. My FOH PA gear uses a stereo digital 31 band EQ + 10 band parametric with RTA. We analyze each venue and store as a preset for recall so we have correction for the speakers and the room. This assures that instrument and vocals translate well in different rooms. We have a very consistent sound. I wouldn't do it any other way.


    I hope one day to have more consistent profiled tones too. I want to sound as good as I can when playing live! An enhanced KPA monitor EQ would really help.


    Thanks CK for a great musical tool. I hope there is still room for improvement for us live players.


    bd

    Viabcroce,


    Your observation is right. Keyboarders use linear monitor for a long time. And they have always taken those sounds in a different manner than guitarists.
    But do not tell a keyboarder that this is a different pair of shoes! I am a keyboarder :)


    Fidelity is an issue even with synth sounds. They exist on recordings and have created a sonic culture, that is to be replicated through various speakers - also on stage.
    But keyboarders do not only play synth sounds. They play:


    Sampled piano - acoutic
    E-Piano - directly injected or sampled
    Hammond organ - mic'ed or modeled
    Synth - synthetic


    You see, keyboarders have a very wide concept of sounds, that philosophically includes all situations that a guitarist can be into.
    Still they have a different concept of working with speakers. In my perception they share concept with drummers, singers, producers, etc. A good example for guitarists!

    Quote

    You see, keyboarders have a very wide concept of sounds, that philosophically includes all situations that a guitarist can be into.
    Still they have a different concept of working with speakers. In my perception they share concept with drummers, singers, producers, etc. A good example for guitarists!


    CK, Excellent points. The best I can think of is sampled piano sounds and also vocal monitors. Piano sounds are difficult to reproduce in a monitor because they are extremely full range and harmonically complex. A good EQ helps!


    Vocal monitors nearly always require EQ if only to tame feedback from room resonances.


    Now guitarists....we have something nobody else has. Its the very thing that makes the KPA the exceptional choice. We have "feel" from the sound pressure interacting with the guitar....attack, response, feedback. An FRFR monitor can lose this tactile response that the KPA provides. EQ correction with external gear has been shown to restore this


    I'm done begging....for now. I hope we can see something in the future to help with this. Other products have it and I miss it in the KPA.


    bd

    Sure, keyboard players think different. And we're all a bit nerdy here for sure about devices and technology :)


    It's also true that human ears get accustomed to everything, so that I can enjoy any kind of music through a '60s transistor radio.
    But, should I be listening to a stage concert performed through a Steinway Grand Coda, If I could choose I'd want nothing in between, or if it's not possible then I'd opt for the best PA system they could provide.


    Basically, I believe guitarists want this great feeling on stage even only for themselves, and sonic fidelity is part of the feeling.
    No-one can tell how to shape your vision as an engineer and an entrepreneur, this is just what your customers happen to want ;)


    Thanks for your commitment and efforts, I'm sure most of us are enjoying your creatures!


    :)

    Quote from musicman65

    In the perfect world the profiler would offer a global eq with
    Lowcut and Highcut with selectable slope
    Lowshelf and Highshelf with variable slope or Q
    2 to 4 peak eq's full parametric.

    Yes, that is just what needed -because of the imperfect world! :)


    Please take such a unique piece of equipment as KPA to another level also in that way.


    X-slot needs to be liberated of the studio EQ:s slavery to another more important missions ;)

    I don't think we need that much, this would be a major progress from the current master/monitor EQ IMHO:


    Low cut frequency
    Low cut slope (off, 6db/8va, 12db/8a, 18db/8va, 24db/8va)
    Para1 Freq
    Para1 Q
    Para1 Gain
    Para2 Freq
    Para2 Q
    Para 2 Gain
    High Cut frequency
    High cut slope (off, 6db/8va, 12db/8a, 18db/8va, 24db/8va)


    10 parameters only! :D


    EDIT: I would only need these parameters in the Monitor EQ section, the Master EQ could stay as it currently is because let's face it, 1) the sound guy will have lots of ways of EQing the signal for the PA and 2) the way the tones are presented to the audience is not as critical as what we as musicians need to hear.

    Edited 2 times, last by Deny ().

    Quote from Deny

    EDIT: I would only need these parameters in the Monitor EQ section, the Master EQ could stay as it currently is because let's face it, 1) the sound guy will have lots of ways of EQing the signal for the PA and 2) the way the tones are presented to the audience is not as critical as what we as musicians need to hear.

    Im using stereo setup from mains................sniam morf putes oerets gnisu mI ;(