KPA paired wiht Atomic CLR

First I have to say that I don't know the CLR.

I'm not quite sure if your approach will satisfy you. It depends on what you mean be "the real thing". If you mean standing in front of a 4x12 with a 100W tube head sitting on top you will certainly not get this. If you mean a properly miced guitar sound then yes!
Going the FRFR way means you will get what the amp sounds like miced. This is what you hear through monitors in the studio or the PA at a concert. You have to ask yourself it that is what you are looking for or if you what the sound you get standing in front of your stack.

I don't have Atomic CLRs but I want to give you some food for thought.

Do you like to listen to recorded music? Do you like to listen very loud on a good set of speakers?
If this is the case and you're used to this kind of experience, then you'll be very happy I bet.
But it will require you to change your perception of what to expect to hear a bit if you had been used to the "raw" thing that you call the "real" thing. What is the "real" thing? Is it the sheer brutal blast from a 4x12 cab? Or is it the mic'ed amp sound that goes to FOH and/or a recording and/or some good in-ear monitors? If this sounds tempting to you, then you'll be more than happy. On the other hand, if you can't or don't want to adapt, then you might be better of using your 4x12 cab and switch cab simulation off in your Profiler ... with a much reduced flexibility of course. How could you make a Marshall 4x12 cab sound like a Fender Tweed Deluxe? You would be stuck with only one (or few) type(s) of cabs you bring on stage.

Hope this helps a bit.
Martin

Try it out yourself. Noone but you can say what you really prefer.

No matter what you choose, make sure you get a 30day money back waranty.

Hey Cristofero,

welcome here

I'm not sure whether you have got a Profiler already and are just looking for something to make it sound. This was my impression at least, but from the other answers you're getting it seems I may have got it wrong, and maybe you are considering buying a Profiler as well.
Anyway, I'd like to share a couple of thoughts:

• The Profiler is the most organic-sounding digital device on the market IMO; if it sounds bad, then it's the profile, bad tweaking, cab or room/stand (or the player, of course).
• The CLR is the most transparent loudspeaking device you can buy for the money. Triple the price for something better-sounding. What you put in, gets out.

I'm aware some may like the Axe-FX better, but you can't go wrong. If I were interested in digital devices, I'd buy the above w\o even checking it out. Seriously.

Cristofero, the CLR sounds as neutral as possible.
If I was in your position, before actually buying the CLR, I would upgrade my studio monitors to better ones (maybe with a return option?).
If you then love the sound, you will also love the CLR.
If not, then FRFR is not for you.

Quote from Cristofero80

Is there something as good which is more popular and therefore availble everywhere?

It has been mentioned on this forum MANY times .. go get the Yamaha DXR10, they will totally destroy your M-Audios (and your ear drums as well if you like).

'nuff said
Martin

I have M-Audio BX8's. Of course many profiles sound more like a mic'ed amp than an amp in the room. There's lots and lots of tips to get more of an amp-in-the-room sound out of a close-mic'ed rig, such as adding a touch of reverb and EQ'ing the brightness down a bit (do you listen to your directional guitar speakers directly in front of them?).

I find multi-mic'ed rigs often sound more like a real amp than when using a single mic.

The Amp Factory's Mark V pack has a VERY natural sounding cabinet section. I like to use this cab for lots of rigs. Even with the cheapo monitors, it sounds like a real stack IMO, as long as you aren't trying to crank the volume up really high. It was the first profile that I thought sounded a lot more like a real amp than a recorded amp.

The fact that some FRFR solutions may sound a little more "amp in the room" than the others is not necessary because of their greater linearity. Because the goal of a good FRFR speaker is not to sound like an "amp in the room", so even if you buy the best of the best you will most probably not get the sound you are looking for.

The KPA does well what you want it to do. If you plug it in a FRFR system it will sound like a mic'd amp, if you plug it in an amp and a guitar cab it will sound like an "amp in the room". And both way it will sound organic. Plenty!

BTW, I use a DXR10 which has a "little" of this guitar cab feel and I read somewhere that the Matrix Q12A has it too.

The CLR transmits pretty much the exact tone of the KPA, which in turn reproduces pretty much the exact tone of the original amp, cab, mic, preamp and the rest of the signal chain. In wedge position, the CLR will transmit that tone directly at your face. If you're used to a guitar cab pointed at the backs of your knees, and if you're not used to hearing your tone recorded and played back at you through studio monitors, then there's going to be some mental adjustment required.

That being said, the KPA+CLR is great at conveying very detailed but sweet highs, without the harshness and uneven response that I experienced with other monitoring solutions.

Quote from burningyen

The CLR transmits pretty much the exact tone of the KPA, which in turn reproduces pretty much the exact tone of the original amp, cab, mic, preamp and the rest of the signal chain. In wedge position, the CLR will transmit that tone directly at your face. If you're used to a guitar cab pointed at the backs of your knees, and if you're not used to hearing your tone recorded and played back at you through studio monitors, then there's going to be some mental adjustment required.

That being said, the KPA+CLR is great at conveying very detailed but sweet highs, without the harshness and uneven response that I experienced with other monitoring solutions.

You make several good points, but the one that I think doesn't get considered enough is the 'cab pointed straight at your head' factor. Most players, especially those using bigger rigs, only hear their amps off-axis. When they hear even their favorite amp through their favorite cab, straight in your face, they don't like how it sounds. They often find it difficult to dial in 'their tone' listening on axis. It's one of the things you have to adjust to for any FRFR speaker situation.

Time ago I read a post by Mr. Jay Mitchell who stated that with his IRs and his (real) cabs (the CLRs had not been designed at the time) his Axe sounded exactly like his amp... in the room. He explained that it was because of his mic'ing technique and knowledge about direct and reflexed (?) waves.
Since the KPA is very good at capturing the cab's behaviour, I guess that he would get a great sound with the profiler as well.
Finally, it seems the issue lies in the way the mic interacts with the cab and the room. He used a mid-field recording with special attentions.

Quote from viabcroce

Time ago I read a post by Mr. Jay Mitchell who stated that with his IRs and his (real) cabs (the CLRs had not been designed at the time) his Axe sounded exactly like his amp... in the room. He explained that it was because of his mic'ing technique and knowledge about direct and reflexed (?) waves.
.

At that time I tried his far-field IR's with the Ultra with interest but I didn't like the sound. It sounded way too muffeled for my taste which doesn't mean they are not accurate but only states that I want to hear different things in my cab sound.
I wish I had had the opportunity to listen to more far- field IR's then but Jay's were the only ones available.

I feel you, my point is that he said the IRs sounded like his amp in the room tho.
I wanted to point out that it's possible to get the aitr sound with the proper mic'ing and a very transparent cab.
IOW, it seems the problem is in how the mic senses the amp and gives its sound back.
Finally, an amp in the room is not necessary to get the aitr sound. This is very good news, isn't it?

The problem with catching the air sound is to finish with an "amp in the room, in the room" sound... It could be fine with headphone but if you want to get an amp in the room sound thru FRFR it is effectively not especially the air that you want to catch.

As far as I got, it was not a matter of "air" but rather of balancing direct sound, early, mid and late reflections. He also explained why the result is hard to achieve.
Anyway he said it worked at mimicking the real amp with a linear cab, and I trust him.

I've found a part of those concepts:

Quote

1. You'll never get into the ballpark with speaker IRs that were acquired by close-mic'ing or with an uncalibrated microphone at any distance.

2. You'll never get close if your playback system is not neutral.

3. You'll never get close if your modeling/processing system does not accurately account for the interaction that occurs between a physical tube amplifier and the complex electrical load presented by the speaker.

The above mean that most players cannot approach "amp in the room" sounds with a modeler, given presently available tools. There is no turnkey solution to "amp in the room." That does not mean it cannot be done nor that it is not being done.

A nearfield response has no possibility of matching the response of the speaker at a realistic listening distance. It stands no chance of capturing the response that you hear when you play through one of those speakers.

If you really want to get an IR of the speaker that matches what you hear, you need three things:

• an accurate test mic
• data that is taken in the farfield (with no room reflections in the first ~22 milliseconds)
• an accurate FRFR monitor.

Shortchange any of the three, and you'll never get there.

My IRs all sound exactly like the speakers from which they were acquired. If you don't like them - generously assuming you've ever played them through a sufficiently accurate speaker to even know what they sound like - you wouldn't like the physical speakers, either. That's a fact.

Most third-party IRs (not including mine, however) were not captured with calibrated test mics.

When a more typical recording mic was used, there will already be substantial coloration in the speaker IR due to the mic. In that case, you will always have the effect of that mic.

Q: I have a basic question, why does the IR of the cab played through FRFR seem to have more highs and lows than the cab itself?

A: "The cab itself" has differing amounts of "highs and lows," depending on how you acquire the IR. A close-mic'ed IR can have more highs, more lows, or both than you would hear using that cab as a player.

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There was much more than this, I'll try and find it again