Clean Sense

    Quote from nightlight

    If I may be so bold, Mr CK, I think the function of clean sense has also changed with various revisions.


    I know it's not supposed to affect distorted tones, but if I turn the knob while playing something distorted, I definitely hear a difference.


    Have you done a blind test if you actually hear a difference or just expect to hear a difference? No offence meant, but placebo affects us all. I just tried extreme settings and there is absolutely zero difference in sound or feel. I'll post you a blind test example once soon. Latest firmware here.


    Here's a test, can you tell where do I change the setting and how? :)
    https://drive.google.com/file/…lSVN0U2M/edit?usp=sharing

    On my side, I saw no modification in Clean Sense tone in the various Firmware apart from the scale in dB.


    I use rarely over 6 dB, but I do (but never over 8 dB), just for an example, on the Fuchs ODS30 by Peter Fischer (by the way, do you remember this amps??? They are really GREAT :-)).

    Quote from nakedzen

    Have you done a blind test if you actually hear a difference or just expect to hear a difference? No offence meant, but placebo affects us all. I just tried extreme settings and there is absolutely zero difference in sound or feel. I'll post you a blind test example once soon. Latest firmware here.


    I'm on the latest firmware too. Simple example, being away from my Kemper. Try a distorted patch at your usual clean sense setting. Then increase the clean sense. Chances are, you will notice a difference in the levels of the blinking light, i.e. green, orange and red.


    Sound-wise, I'm not sure whether there's a difference, I'll have to check and confirm. But the visual indicators indicate that there is some behaviour at the input that is not as per the "clean sense to level out volumes and not affect distorted sounds" norm. I'll have to check the output indicators to see whether there's any difference there, but I don't think so.


    As Mr CK was saying: put out those lights! 8o

    Quote from nightlight

    DonPetersen was helping me out with a problem (eek, I have to mail him a wav file, but have been tied up in knots at work) where my DI signal was clipping despite being sent through SPDIF and no gain being introduced anywhere in the signal other than the Kemper. But Don suggested that it's likely to be a clean sense related issue.


    Clean sense directly affects the DI SPDIF output level. So for those who record DI tracks through SPDIF the clean sense value that brings up SPDIF level to high causing clipping is the limit or you have to cut SPDIF out in the output section to maintain a proper headroom. I got CS on -12dB and get a DI level peaking at -6.3db in my DAW with SPDIF out on 0.0. I used this as an indicator to judge my clean sense settings parallel to my most valuable tools: my ears. I get a clipping/distortion in a JC120 TAF profile when i turn CS up to -6.0dB. This would kill my DAW's headroom for the DI track.

    Quote from nightlight

    ^^Cool, thanks. This might sound contrived, but if you listen to the last bit of the riff on the multiple takes you did, I can definitely hear a difference in the gain in those last few notes. I hope someone else can verify that, I'm listening on headphones on my office laptop :D


    I am not able to detect a difference in the gain/distortion texture.

    Here is my range, done with the help of a Behringer DEQ 2496 dB meter:


    Humbucker 7k, Alnico 2 : -5 db
    Blackouts Bridge: +0 db
    EMG 85 Neck: +3 db
    Humbucker 7k, Alnico 5 : +5 db
    Humbucker 8k, Alnico 5 : +5 db
    Humbucker 14k, Alnico 5 : +6 db
    Single coil 5.7k : +7 dB
    Single coil 6.5k : + 8 dB

    Quote from lef38

    Behringer DEQ 2496 dB




    How did you measure with the Behringer meter? Where did you connect it?


    I have singelcoils (CS Custom Fat 50s) and I have set the clean sense to 0 db, if I turn it louder I get red flashes in the input light. Why so different values?

    I'm on -12 and still blinking red though it sounds better at -8

    [Blocked Image: http://i39.tinypic.com/f05540.jpg]
    Pro Tools HDX HD i/o 8x8x8
    SSL Nucleus
    vintech
    2 573
    2 x81
    1 609ca
    classic api 4 vp312
    Neumann kh120's
    Presonus digimax
    Furman hds-6
    splawn nitro
    gmajor 2
    kemper
    agile 727s
    yes i work at Vintech

    Quote from nakedzen

    In which takes do you mean? :) 1,2,3,4 or 5? Which ones have more and which ones have less?


    You can PM me your results, I'm curious if there actually is a difference.


    I can hear a difference between 1 and 4, at least. If you listen to the ending bit at 6 and 31 seconds, I most definitely hear something different in the gain structure. Almost identical, but not quite, there's more gain in repeat No. 4 than the first instance you play it. It's subtle, but it's there.


    If someone can do one of those spectrum charts, I think that should provide conclusive proof that my ears are golden, if not anything about clean sense haha :thumbup:

    Quote from HELL-G

    Clean sense directly affects the DI SPDIF output level. So for those who record DI tracks through SPDIF the clean sense value that brings up SPDIF level to high causing clipping is the limit or you have to cut SPDIF out in the output section to maintain a proper headroom. I got CS on -12dB and get a DI level peaking at -6.3db in my DAW with SPDIF out on 0.0. I used this as an indicator to judge my clean sense settings parallel to my most valuable tools: my ears. I get a clipping/distortion in a JC120 TAF profile when i turn CS up to -6.0dB. This would kill my DAW's headroom for the DI track.


    But should we set clean sense based on SPDIF limits, or should we rely on the LEDs/our ears? That is the problem that preoccupies our people. I've tried going down to -12 DB clean sense, but it kills my vibe and doesn't seem to help with the problem I approached DonPetersen about either. The DI track was still clipping.


    And in that respect, I think Mr CK's idea of enhancing the negative range in clean sense is a good start, because I would want my DI track to peak at the same level as the rest of my audio, i.e around -12, -16 DB. I could anyway beef up the signal as required using the excellent "new" SPDIF reamp sense control to beef things up. Of course, at the same time, I want my clean tones to be the same volume as my distorted ones. Pandemonium ensues. 8o

    Nightlight,


    I doubt that your Spdif DI track was peaking to 0 dB with a Clean Sense setting of -12 dB.


    When you leave headroom of 12 dB or more, you would loose more than 2 Bits of 24 of the Spdif signal.
    Those bits are not significant regulary, but they are if you reamp into a high gain profile.
    The softclipping on the input helps to achieve a good S/N ratio.

    Quote from ckemper

    Nightlight,


    I doubt that your Spdif DI track was peaking to 0 dB with a Clean Sense setting of -12 dB.


    When you leave headroom of 12 dB or more, you would loose more than 2 Bits of 24 of the Spdif signal.
    Those bits are not significant regulary, but they are if you reamp into a high gain profile.
    The softclipping on the input helps to achieve a good S/N ratio.


    Somebody help, Mr CK is tearing me apart on the forums today, lol 8o


    My reputation's in shreds haha :cursing:


    I'll have to to do a test and let you know for certain, Mr CK. Could have been that my clean sense was higher.


    Here's the waveform that DonPetersen posted in response to my thread about excess bass frequencies screwing with my head. Must have been a higher clean sense setting, but I'll post another DI track later tonight. Bought myself another piece of great German engineering (Magix Samplitude) to replace another piece of German engineering (Cubase). Woohoo! Up the Germans! :thumbup:


    [Blocked Image: http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e229/donelectro/image_zps174d38b1.jpg]


    PS: Up the Germans a la Up the Irons, or Up the British! I got a little scared that things get lost in the translation between cultures :thumbup:

    Just one thing more to that clean sense thread:
    -with my Ernie Ball Luke with EMG and Artec EXP Warm Tone Boost, clean sense in -12dB, no problems.
    -with PRS Custom 24 with EMG and Artec EXP Warm Tone Boost, clean sense in -12dB, cleans just go to crunch.


    Not with any other SS equipment or equal.


    Any suggestions?