Feature Request .......Levelling Profiles

    I gig a few times a week with my KPA. The Soundman is complaining to me about the variation in levels between patches / profiles.


    Any chance of an overall control that would allow you to set an OVER RIDING minimum and maximum output from the XLR's / jacks for the send to a desk ?


    It might need the ability to set a maximum and minimum level to allow it to reduce the loud patches and increase the quiet patches. Could maybe be linked into settings for Clean / Distorted Sens too ?


    I set my volumes via headphones at home and its very hard to get an exact dB rating from any patch ....especially if you use 40-50 a night. Auditioning them means that you need to 'remember' the volumes which is impossible really.....


    Maybe a visual aid that shows a graph of min and max patches could also help as part of this function.....


    Maybe its just me that has this issue :?:

    Edited once, last by Robman ().

    The volumes on the KPA are normalized to a certain extent by default. The differences can come from several reasons;
    First off, the EQ is active so boosting the mids, for example, definitely increases volume. Furthermore, having more mids will naturally make things sound louder.
    Second, if you tune your volumes at home volumes they will be off at stage volumes. This is an acoustic phenomenon and can't be fixed automatically.
    Third, if you turn effects on or off, boost type effects can and will increase volume, even on fairly high gain settings.


    Bottom line - different gig, different settings. That's what performance mode is for.

    "But dignity is difficult to maintain
    stamina requires constant upkeep
    repetition is boring
    and you pay for grace."

    I have ran through several scenarios with this over the last year. Since there are variations as you mentioned....some of which are the nature of the beast and some of which are just changes to boost volume I had to choose which method to make changes. Since you likely will not use 100 rigs it becomes just an exercise in decibel check and adjustment. You can download a free app if you have a smart phone or computer if you do not already have a decibel meter. I first chose to adjust cabinet volume leaving all else the same. Since sometimes I use cab off and ran through a power amp into a cabinet I found that method was not the best as the cab off defeated the volume level change and the level variances were back. I know just change the rig volume for each rig and save them that way no matter what rig I use it is the same volume from clean to distorted to acoustic simulator. It seems like it would be a pain, but it is actually quick once you get going. This also alleviates the issue of setting it at home or stage since the volume you set is the volume you get. The sound guy can adjust to his/her hearts content and you will be consistent no matter what you use.

    "More Guitar in the Monitors" :thumbup:

    With thousands of user profiles, created with so many different kinds of guitars, I think it will always be necessary to manually balance levels, especially if you have created any of your own profiles. An automatic volume range balancing feature could be hard to implement without compromising the dynamic range accuracy of the individual profiles. If a feature like that is ever implemented, please also include a global ON/OFF switch for the feature :)


    I have the opposite experience with sound engineers - they usually describe the guitar channel fader as "set it and forget it". But, before I started using it live, I volume balanced my two main sounds (one clean and one dirty sound) to each other. I did that part at stage volume, just like I would with a two-channel conventional amp.


    Once that was done, each additional sound I added only took a few minutes to balance to either the main clean or main dirty sound. Since the main two sounds were dialed in at stage volume, additional similar sounds could be balanced pretty well at less than stage volume. Or you can use headphones for the additional sounds, if necessary.


    Since then, anytime I add a new sound to try live, I do a quick volume balance to either my main clean sound or my main gain sound.


    BTW - you are much better off using your ears than a DB meter for this purpose. A midrangy dirty sound at -10db is not volume balanced to a -10 clean sound with plenty of lows and highs. Balancing sounds includes keeping the EQ differences in mind, too. If one of your sounds has a lot more low end than the others, the sound guy won't be too thrilled with that, either. He'll roll off enough low end for that sound to sit in the mix, and leave it that way, in case you use that sound again. Suddenly, all the other sounds will be too thin in the PA.

    Changes are always going to have to be made regardless if you are in a pro setting or not. Different venues have different acoustics so even minor changes may have to be made. I agree, get a decibel meter and you can get them close. Allow the FOH to conduct minor changes when needed. Also, if it is not to much of a pain have them make notes on where the spikes are so you can further adjust them after the gig.

    :thumbup: "A single note can be short lived but a melody will last a life time." Paul Muller

    I agree with Robman. My biggest issue on KPA is the unbalanced in volume presets. I've lost many many hours of my life to bring them close but still trying. I'm using more than twenty and in another thread also I asked for a global limiter or something like that in the end of the fx chain, something like space effect, to help us to that direction.

    I understand your frustration, but trust me once you download an app and start with a base rig you will be balanced in no time. Look at the meter and listen so you are using multiple tools. Adjust the rig volume and save then next and so forth. Seems like it would be a pain but it goes fast.

    "More Guitar in the Monitors" :thumbup:

    Quote from allegretto

    I agree with Robman. My biggest issue on KPA is the unbalanced in volume presets. I've lost many many hours of my life to bring them close but still trying. I'm using more than twenty and in another thread also I asked for a global limiter or something like that in the end of the fx chain, something like space effect, to help us to that direction.


    limiting is definitely not the way to go.


    setting up your rigs for equal/similar volume is just a job you have to do.
    ask any keyboard player - it's one of the basic tasks any gigging musician has to do.

    Don's keyboardist analogy is a good one - they not only have to volume balance their sounds, but are also using a lot more sounds - they typically use different sounds with each hand at the same time, and may have multiple sounds mapped to different key ranges on each keyboard.


    I use around 50 sounds for my main band's gigs (in a typical night, I use 30 or so of them - the rest are mostly for "request only" songs) and have another 20 for occasional classic rock or oldies gigs.


    Like Bshaw92 said, once you have established the level of your main tone (or, like I did, balance the levels of your you main gain and clean tones), it is becomes very easy to balance another tone. And, the next one...etc.

    Having all rigs at the same dB level,
    making levels with headphones at home,
    using a dB meter to level rigs


    ... is all not a good idea to get the appropriate levels in a live set.
    It would not work, because levels in a band background fully depend in the individual situation of a specific song and arrangement.


    The only possible way to do it: Set the levels by ear during the rehearsals and store it. Readjust the levels at soundcheck, if necessary.
    Use the Rig Volume control (The big control on the lower right) to level rigs for your live set. This is the (only) purpose of that control.


    Remarkably the Clean Sense parameter is not mentioned in this thread. Adjust the clean sounds versus the distorted sound first with Clean Sense in general, before you start leveling the individual rigs with the volume parameter.


    If you want to be 100% correct, do not use a guitar cabinet and CabDriver (MonitorCabOff) for monitoring. The sound through the guitar cab is different than the sound from the PA and monitors by nature, thus the perceived volume can differ.
    If you listen through the PA monitors, this will not happen. If you run a guitar cabinet at rehearsal or on stage, it is a good habit to have the PA sound (the sound with virtual cabinet) on the monitors as well, so you are able to judge the real volume that your audience will hear.

    Does driving the Cab volume improve the sound ? There seems to be a perception that it does. A lot of my rigs have the cabs pushed slightly for this reason. It just means that there's a lot of tweaking for profiles that are new to get them to an equal volume.Also, I've talked about Clean Sens a few times and said that I wouldn't raise it again here.


    I still think that it would be useful to have the option to universally level the output if you wanted to. Then for example you could use a lead sound as a rhythm sound if you were playing a different set ....or a clean sound as a lead sound if you wished to.


    This would probably be best located in the effects slot x , mod or delay to allow you to use the reverb effects slot behind it if needed to boost for leads for example .....Am I making sense to anyone apart from myself ?


    It would also allow you to try new profiles immediately without having to take time to volume match them etc.....

    Quote from Robman

    Does driving the Cab volume improve the sound ? ...


    I assume you mean "Does increasing the volume improve the sound?". No, it does not "improve" the sound, but it changes how your ears perceive the sound (that's why I posted previously that you need to EQ your patches at the volume that you will be playing at). Google "Fletcher-Munson curve" for more info.

    After about 3 weeks of live gigs, between the sound man and my ears, I've got everything pretty leveled out. I just do it on the fly, sometimes between songs, by just adjusting rig volume, and saving.

    Ergo, my initial post about running through this at soundcheck. You should have things relatively balanced, but do compare the volume of your cleans and your distorted tones. I imagine even the area you're playing could make a difference to sound, imagine a cavernous bar versus a packed stadium, frequencies amplified or cut.


    Why I made the reference to "if you're not pro" is because there isn't someone else that's doing it for you. This is just the basics if you want to play live. The soundman sets your volumes and may even do things like add reverb or other FX. But you need to set your rig levels. Starting out relatively close before you go in, you should be able to set all of your tones within a couple of minutes, even 20. Do it early.

    The best way is to weed yourself down to 128 MIDI profiles, then go through them and self-normalize them.


    It takes about 20-30 minutes tops to go through them all. Maybe less.


    What I've found, using a dB meter, is you really do NOT want your clean's as LOUD as your Distortions. At least I don't.


    I'm just looking to not have such huge jumps in volume one headphone setting splits my ear drums when selecting another.


    So there is a big window for eliminating too-loud profiles, and also bringing up a few too-low ones, typically raw ones without effects, which sound great once you level them right.

    I'm not currently gigging (back problems) but when I was I used to rent a rehearsal room myself, and go along with a guitar buddy and spend a couple of hours tuning my tones and levelling patches at gig level with 2 sets of ears.
    There will always be tweaking to do for every venue, there is no way round it.


    I guess the only solution would be to have a remote mic in the room feeding back to a clever bit of software to do it automatically.