Help With Profiling Clean Preamp Sound

    Howdy... I'm right in the middle of profiling my Mesa Formula Preamp and I'm running into an issue trying to get a clean direct sound.


    I have the guitar plugged into the kemper front panel input, and the Formula's direct out (non cabinet sim output) going back into the Kemper's return input. When I attempt to make a clean profile with cabinets turned off, the resulting profile always seems to have the high frequencies rolled off, like the kemper is forcing a cabinet on. When I compare the reference amp to the kemper profile, the reference amp has the bright direct sound as if the preamp was plugged directly into my console but the kemper profiles sounds as if the high freq's are being rolled off. Doesn't sound anything like the reference amp.


    Any suggestions? Does this have something to do with the initial kemper profile I have selected when I start the profiling process?. I just can't seem to get that same bright direct sound I get from the reference amp. Maybe the KPA can't do a direct non-cab preamp direct sound? :S

    When playing back preamps profiles you should keep cab sims on, since this ensures you to keep the entirety of the profiled signal.


    Also, when profiling, you don't need your guitar :) Check the proper connections on the manual.

    Quote from glennfin

    Does this have something to do with the initial kemper profile I have selected when I start the profiling process?. I just can't seem to get that same bright direct sound I get from the reference amp. Maybe the KPA can't do a direct non-cab preamp direct sound? :S


    It can do it perfectly, I cloned my mic preamp and couldn't be happier. I used the free Liquid Avalon 737 profile as the initial profile, it worked great (it's also an excellent valve mic preamp profile, great for Bass).

    Quote from glennfin

    When I attempt to make a clean profile with cabinets turned off


    this I don't quite get.
    do you make a profile from the preamp and then turn off the cabinet in the Profiler?


    please elaborate.


    Quote from glennfin

    Maybe the KPA can't do a direct non-cab preamp direct sound? :S


    other and I have successfully profiled completely clean mic pres and instrument pres.
    just keep the cabinet of the Profiler enabled, even tho it is a DI profile.

    Either way, cab on or off, when comparing after the profile is complete, the reference amp doesn't sound like the profiled amp.


    The Kemper won't allow you to turn off the cab when profiling... only after the profile process is finished. I noticed if I turn cab off before starting the profiling process, the kemper turns it back on when the profiling process starts.







    Yes, I DO need my guitar connected because this is a guitar preamp and just like when profiling an amplifier, it needs to be setup tone wise as described in the manual.






    Quote from viabcroce

    Also, when profiling, you don't need your guitar :) Check the proper connections on the manual.

    Quote from glennfin

    After the profiling, shouldn't the reference amp with cab turned off, sound just like the profiled amp with the cabs turned off when doing a back and forth comparison? :?:


    All users who run their Profiler with CAB off through guitar cabs miss a good part of the tasty sauce. The Profiler can't distinguish perfectly between amp and cab part when profiling. So there's always some important spices of the amp's sound in the cab portion of the profile and vice versa. If someone likes it ... great. But don't expect it to be 100% identical. Not even 90%. :)

    Yes, but I'm trying to profile a preamp which doesn't have a cabinet. What I'm attempting to do is profile a preamp to get the same sound as if the preamp was plugged directly into a console. The cab in the kemper is rolling off the high frequencies which of course is what a guitar cab does.



    Quote from lightbox


    All users who run their Profiler with CAB off through guitar cabs miss a good part of the tasty sauce. The Profiler can't distinguish perfectly between amp and cab part when profiling. So there's always some important spices of the amp's sound in the cab portion of the profile and vice versa. If someone likes it ... great. But don't expect it to be 100% identical. Not even 90%. :)

    This is what I don't understand, how can a profile of a clean mic pre be accurate if the cab is turned on since the cab of the profiler rolls off the highs??




    Quote from DonPetersen

    other and I have successfully profiled completely clean mic pres and instrument pres.
    just keep the cabinet of the Profiler enabled, even tho it is a DI profile.

    I know this sounds confusing, and I apologize for making everyone crazy...... I'll try to elaborate a bit :S


    Here's the issue..... When listening to the preamp I'm going to profile, before the profile process begins, through the profiler = "reference amp" selected on the profiler, it doesn't sound the same as when the preamp is not connected to the profiler (no profiler, just guitar into preamp, preamp directly into console)


    Again, that is before the profiling process begins.... just monitoring the reference amp (connected preamp) through the profiler vs monitoring the preamp directly into the console.


    More experimenting when I get back to the studio tonight...

    Quote from glennfin

    This is what I don't understand, how can a profile of a clean mic pre be accurate if the cab is turned on since the cab of the profiler rolls off the highs??


    It shouldn't roll of any highs. The Kemper has no idea whether a cab is involved or not, so if you turn off cab on the Kemper you alter the profile. The Kemper doesn't add cab sim to a profile, it only captures what it sees. If a DI profile (cabs engaged on the Kemper) doesn't sound like the original, it somehow wasn't able to capture the profile correctly.

    Quote from glennfin


    Here's the issue..... When listening to the preamp I'm going to profile, before the profile process begins, through the profiler = "reference amp" selected on the profiler, it doesn't sound the same as when the preamp is not connected to the profiler (no profiler, just guitar into preamp, preamp directly into console)


    Again, that is before the profiling process begins.... just monitoring the reference amp (connected preamp) through the profiler vs monitoring the preamp directly into the console.


    Try with the preamp connected directly to the console, but go through the Kemper on the way in (Kemper in profile mode). Does it sound different? Use the same cable from guitar>Kemper as you use from guitar>preamp when comparing.

    That's exactly what I'm going to try tonight. Thanks!


    Maybe I'll record one track of each to make it easier to compare.. 8)


    Quote from Trazan


    Try with the preamp connected directly to the console, but go through the Kemper on the way in (Kemper in profile mode). Does it sound different? Use the same cable from guitar>Kemper as you use from guitar>preamp when comparing.

    Edited once, last by glennfin ().

    From the wiKPA:

    Quote

    COMPARING THE AMP AND THE KPA WHILE PROFILING


    It’s important to be aware that the A/B comparison within the KPA is not comparing the real thing with the profiled amp. The sound of the real amp is modified by the KPA’s buffering and again altered when passing the A/D section in order to route to the monitors.
    Comparisons should be made between the amp and the KPA in Browse mode.
    NOTE: Going from Profile to Browse mode the sound changes. The actual change is just a pure level change tho. [[ckemper]] When you profile a slightly crunched amp, it will have a volume compensation for the lower gain. But the volume compensation is counterproductive during the profiling process, thus switched off.
    When you return to the Browse mode, the volume compensation is activated, then increasing the volume of the sound a bit. The sound is not colored by this whatsoever.

    ... in case it might be of help :)

    Ok, tried that last night..... preamp output connected directly to the console, compared guitar plugged directly into preamp, to guitar plugged into kemper, kemper direct send to preamp input. They sounded exactly the same but that is what you would expect considering the direct send from the kemper is just a pass through of the guitar signal. The difference I was hearing before was from the kemper main outs during the profiling process. What viabcroce posted might be an explaination of what I was hearing before but it did sound like an EQ boost - a sort of pre-emphasis.


    I spent a few hours profiling a different preamp last night (Triaxis). Taking into consideration what others have said about leaving the cab section on, I created a clean non distorted profile. The results are what you would expect... the profile sounded identical to the original. It was very interesting that after finishing the profile, switching to browse mode and listening to the profile, switching the cab on and off made no difference in the sound....... ok, I'm getting it. Now I'm going to do a little more experimenting with regards to which Triaxis preamp output to use when profiling, the cab sim or direct non-cab output.


    Thanks to everyone who posted for the advise and tips. ;)







    Quote from Trazan


    Try with the preamp connected directly to the console, but go through the Kemper on the way in (Kemper in profile mode). Does it sound different? Use the same cable from guitar>Kemper as you use from guitar>preamp when comparing.

    Quote from glennfin

    Ok, tried that last night..... preamp output connected directly to the console, compared guitar plugged directly into preamp, to guitar plugged into kemper, kemper direct send to preamp input. They sounded exactly the same but that is what you would expect considering the direct send from the kemper is just a pass through of the guitar signal.


    Not really. I was thinking there might have been a difference due to differing input impedances, and the addition of the Kempers buffered output. Them sounding identical is a very good thing :) May of course depend on the amp/guitar though. Did you use an active guitar btw?

    Used a Les Paul with humbuckers. I am assuming both the preamp and the kemper have similar high impedance inputs and the kemper direct out has an impedance similar to a guitar considering it's designed to go into an amp input, but yes, glad they sound identical. I'm very happy with the profiles I'm getting. :D



    Quote from Trazan

    Not really. I was thinking there might have been a difference due to differing input impedances, and the addition of the Kempers buffered output. Them sounding identical is a very good thing :) May of course depend on the amp/guitar though. Did you use an active guitar btw?