Tubes or Transistor?

  • … I really really love my profile as it is, but need to hear it clearly at rehearsal standing close to a hard hitting metal drummer, and as a monitor (cab) live. ...


    You can't express your desire in a better way. The question remains how to achieve that.


    1. You want to hear what would be recorded or what the audience would hear through PA? Go for IEM or PA (FRFR) monitors! That's the closest you can get to your "profile as is". And there's a lot of options for VERY loud monitoring. You might have to get used to it because you've been used to hear the guitar cab's direct (un-mic'ed) sound.


    2. You insist on using your Marshall guitar cab? Fine! If you like it, use it. But forget about accurate monitoring of your "profile as is" ... in case you're using rigs that are based on cabinets other than your Marshall cab. For example, if you plan to use a Fender Deluxe or a Vox AC30 rig, you're stuck. Your Marshall cab can't give you the feel of a Fender Deluxe or a Vox AC30 combo, no matter how hard you try.


    Most people (including me) who suggest FRFR monitoring enjoy the full range of amp/cab combinations the Profiler can reproduce. We don't want to limit ourselves to many amps with just one cab. It's your decision which direction is yours. If you're sure you want to stick with your cab, then at least make sure you don't introduce yet another stage of coloring your profile's sound. :)

  • I understand what your saying but you're really not using the HF driver in your full range speaker because none of those high frequencies are being produced by the profiles of guitar amps anyway. So it's just a flat frequency response within the range of the profile you're after I assume.....


    I think I'd like to try it both ways ( guitar cab and full range) and see which one I like ..... heck, I may do both.. :D :D



    This is a common misunderstanding. A guitar cab doesn't only roll off highs, but also presents a not-flat amplitude response. Reproducing a profile through a guitar cab is like mic'ing a cab and then amplifying the signal with a guitar combo: all the frequencies would be affected by a guitar combo twice.
    This doesn't mean it can't sound good, but it will certainly not be faithful to the original profile, which is the desire most have instead.


    To better explain: if the original rig had -12 dB @ 2500 Hz, I want a flat amplification system able to let me hear those -12 dB, and not a guitar system which does whatever it wants (which could be literally anything) out of them.

  • thats why I take a power amp di with a load box and profile my amps without the cab so that I can keep the sound I want when amplifying it through my cab or other guitar cabs

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  • Yes, same thing for me regarding the profiles I made with my Mesa Tube preamps, but I guess if you're using a full range speaker, you have all the choices of the cabs in the profiler... 8)

    thats why I take a power amp di with a load box and profile my amps without the cab so that I can keep the sound I want when amplifying it through my cab or other guitar cabs

  • I understand what your saying but you're really not using the HF driver in your full range speaker because none of those high frequencies are being produced by the profiles of guitar amps anyway. So it's just a flat frequency response within the range of the profile you're after I assume.....

    And this alone would make a world of difference. That's why a profile sounds different with a guitar cab or with a FRFR cab: because guitar cabs are not flat. If your statement was true, you should not hear any difference. But "range" is only one parameter of the amplitude response, and its ends are a progressive damping and not a step.
    In fact, not all cabs have the same "range": there're guitar cabs gifted with a much more extended response on the highs, or on the lows (see for example the hump in a 4x12). Only a really FRFR cab is able to return this extended range of frequencies with the correct amplitude, making each profile sound faithful to the original setup regardless the cab being used.


    Apart from this, "none of those freqs are being produced" is too generic to found a scientific statement. You should not think of a crossover as a step filter, able to cut frequencies at an exact threshold, which determines what is sent to which cone: on the contrary, it's a progressive damping of frequencies, and both cones reproduce a good amount of freqs in common.
    Try and mic a combo, and amplify it through a FRFR cab w/o the woofer, and you'll hear music anyway!


    :)

  • If what you're saying is true about FRFR cabs, then they should all sound the same, but they don't, they also have peaks and valleys in freq response just like guitar cabs. Now GOOD studio monitors are a different story. They are designed to have a true flat frequency (freq vs amplitude) response for obvious reasons. Damping aside, what you are calling "FRFR" cabs are just PA cabinets/speakers and have similar limitations just as guitar cabinets do except they have HF drivers and crossovers that extend that response. They may have a flatter extended response but still not a true linear response like a good studio monitor should have.


    And yes, I understand what a crossover is and what it's doing, I shouldn't have said "none of those high frequencies..." because as you said, you will still hear sound from the HF driver if you disconnect the LF driver, just extremely attenuated because a crossover is not a "brick wall" device. :)







    And this alone would make a world of difference. That's why a profile sounds different with a guitar cab or with a FRFR cab: because guitar cabs are not flat. If your statement was true, you should not hear any difference. But "range" is only one parameter of the amplitude response, and its ends are a progressive damping and not a step.
    In fact, not all cabs have the same "range": there're guitar cabs gifted with a much more extended response on the highs, or on the lows (see for example the hump in a 4x12). Only a really FRFR cab is able to return this extended range of frequencies with the correct amplitude, making each profile sound faithful to the original setup regardless the cab being used.


    Apart from this, "none of those freqs are being produced" is too generic to found a scientific statement. You should not think of a crossover as a step filter, able to cut frequencies at an exact threshold, which determines what is sent to which cone: on the contrary, it's a progressive damping of frequencies, and both cones reproduce a good amount of freqs in common.
    Try and mic a combo, and amplify it through a FRFR cab w/o the woofer, and you'll hear music anyway!


    :)

  • What you say about PA speakers being not linear enough is true, glennfin, and that's the reason why the amplification of units like the profiler or other hingehend modellers is such a delicate and important topic:
    If you have the abiliity to store ALL that amps in one machine you want to make sure they're amplified in the best possible = most neutral way.

  • I think we're away from the original post topic but I would just like to add one more comment if I may..... While I understand the importance of accurate reproduction of the captured profiles, additional "color" via either a tube power amp or guitar cabinet is not automatically a bad thing and may in fact be desirable to some users. I can understand if you want the Vox AC30 profile to sound EXACTLY like a Vox AC30, but what if it sounds even better to you coming out of a guitar cabinet?. Just some food for thought. ;) ;) ;)





    What you say about PA speakers being not linear enough is true, glennfin, and that's the reason why the amplification of units like the profiler or other hingehend modellers is such a delicate and important topic:
    If you have the abiliity to store ALL that amps in one machine you want to make sure they're amplified in the best possible = most neutral way.

  • I think we're away from the original post topic but I would just like to add one more comment if I may..... While I understand the importance of accurate reproduction of the captured profiles, additional "color" via either a tube power amp or guitar cabinet is not automatically a bad thing and may in fact be desirable to some users. I can understand if you want the Vox AC30 profile to sound EXACTLY like a Vox AC30, but what if it sounds even better to you coming out of a guitar cabinet?. Just some food for thought. ;) ;) ;)


    That's true and exactly the reason why people found the DXR10 superior to the Atomic CLR in a side by side comparison that I did a while ago.

  • Quote

    If what you're saying is true about FRFR cabs, then they should all sound the same, but they don't, they also have peaks and valleys in freq
    response just like guitar cabs. Now GOOD studio monitors are a different story. They are designed to have a true flat frequency (freq vs amplitude) response for obvious reasons. Damping aside, what you are calling "FRFR" cabs are just PA cabinets/speakers and have similar limitations just as guitar cabinets do except they have HF drivers and crossovers that extend that response. They may have a flatter extended
    response but still not a true linear response like a good studio monitor should have.

    Well, the subject in discussion here was guitar cabs Vs. linear cabs in general.
    It's true that PAs are usually not strongly linear, even tho they are always more linear than guitar cabs! I also agree that "FRFR" is nothing but a slogan invented for guitar players gone digital. I myself use the term just because it's more practical. OTOH, if a cab claims to be FRFR and it's not you can't blame the whole category because of that. So, when I talk about FRFR I mean a real FRFR cab. Those that are not, are a different thing.
    But I would not agree that studio monitors are "FRFR" as well, since all studio monitors sound different from each other too. Even in the above-3,000 $ range, each monitor has got its signature sound.


    Let's put it this way: first of all, amplitude response is only one of the many parameters that make for an actual transparent transfer function. Having said this, perfect linearity is just a theoretical goal, and no real device can achieve it; but some devices succeed more than others in getting close.
    As Jay Mitchell says, there's no technical and theoretical difference between studio monitors and PAs, except that the latter are made for sounding louder. Of course, some items are better sounding than other, regardless their marketing category.


    Quote

    While I understand the importance of accurate reproduction of the captured profiles, additional "color" via either a tube power amp or guitar cabinet is not automatically a bad thing and may in fact be desirable to some users. I can understand if you want the Vox AC30 profile to sound EXACTLY like a Vox AC30, but what if it sounds even better to you coming out of a guitar cabinet?

    Of course taste can't be discussed. The whole point here is:


    • Using "FRFR" you want your profile to sound exactly like... the profile, not like the amp;


    • If you play the profile of an amp with a cab whose sound is very far from the guitar cab you use with the Profiler, you can't expect it to even sound similar, let alone close.


    Having said this, if the sound of that profile with that cab makes you happy and sounds good to the listeners, who cares whether it's faithful or not?


    :)

  • In my (small) home studio I have a full range monitoring system and guitar cabs. My KPA sounds great through the monitors and great (but different) through a Matrix amp into the cabs. Through both at the same time it sounds awesome. All the range of the profile coupled with the 'amp in the room' punch from the guitar cabs is an intoxicating combo. It may not be completely accurate but, when it sounds that good, who cares?!!

  • After quite a few months experimenting my favoured setup is actually both together. Marshall JMD102 fx return plus JBL prx612m on a short stand provides plenty of volume and spread. It works best when both setups are balanced volume-wise with only a slight edge given to the marshall tube amp.

  • I've tried my Kemper through a Carvin DCM150 and a MosValve MV-962- with OK results. I put it through my ENGL Steve Morse FX return and was floored! It really added that low end thump the other power amps was missing.

  • Hello.
    Hell-G answer is correct but:
    The Question is not tube vs transistor. The question is circuit vs circuit! You can build neutral circuits and colour circuits with both. Importent is the design of the circuit. That ist the reason, that i build my one neutral amps. i am free to build everything, i need. For example a 16000 Watt D-amp or a 200 Watt 0 Hz to 3 MHz (3dB) amp with 0.025% distorsion factor. i can design the circuit i like.


    I build one, how pass into the backopening from my kemper profiling amps.


    (sorry about my bad english)


    best regards Jorrit.

  • If what you're saying is true about FRFR cabs, then they should all sound the same, but they don't, they also have peaks and valleys in freq response just like guitar cabs. Now GOOD studio monitors are a different story. They are designed to have a true flat frequency (freq vs amplitude) response for obvious reasons. Damping aside, what you are calling "FRFR" cabs are just PA cabinets/speakers and have similar limitations just as guitar cabinets do except they have HF drivers and crossovers that extend that response. They may have a flatter extended response but still not a true linear response like a good studio monitor should have.


    There is not such thing as a perfect reproduction using speakers. All speakers and the cabinets they reside in have non-linear responses to some degree. They also have variations in phase response and even worse, their response changes depending on the volume you play them at.


    Guitar cabs are notoriously non-linear; however, this is part of their charm. Some cabs just sound great paired with some amps.... while others .... not so much ;)


    I strongly suspect that most of the guys you will find using a Kemper are what I like to call .... "tone freaks". Most of us here are very particular about our tone.


    So take 95 of 100 of us here and plunk us down in front of ANY guitar, head, cab combo and you would find that after the first few plucks and strums, the hands would be reaching for the adjustments on the guitar and amp. This would be true even for a VERY boutique setup. When we got done, there would be a pleasing sound coming out of the cab. Once that sound was put into the full band environment, more tweaks would be made so that the sound would "fit" into the mix better.


    The biggest thing the Kemper has going for it IMHO is that it is fairly easy to get sounding good on a wide range of guitars, cabs, and PA systems.


    I would say however, that I have had difficulty getting a good AC30 sound from my rig with my fender and Fralin pickups.

  • Once again I'm rethinking everything, just about to take the plunge and buy a Matrix GT800FX powering 2 Mission Gemini !-P's because I thought it was the flattest, most non hifi-ish thing I could buy but now I'm not so sure. If money isn't an object and I want flat response at stage volume with the thump of a real cab (many different cab types during a show) I should be looking at....?