Appalling fraud and theft

  • Any lawsuit would have to prove loss of revenue. I'm fairly certain that a good lawyer wouldn't be concerned only with the name of the profile.


    For example, if they could definitively prove that the existence of a "Fan Double" amp profile leveraged Fender's reputation and reduced Fender's revenue, then Fender could win damages in court. I for one am less tempted to spend $2000 on a specific amp, if I have a profile that gets me 97% of the way there. And those "commercial" profiles are supposed to be better, so they would potentially make buying a new amp completely unnecessary.


    The bottom line is that the fiscal ethics of copying a sound for profit is dubious. Making copies of copies of sounds is no more or less dubious.


    Long live the RE!!! :thumbup:

  • Why do so many people think these are copies of existing sounds? If they were just simple copies, then why not copy them on your own? There's so much more involved to get these sounds right. Good microphones, mic pre-amps, knowledge and experience setting up these amps and to position the mics, good ears, good musical taste, access to lots of amps, even time and money to get these amps and bring them back, maybe even rent them for a fee. It's not a simple copy and it's quite some work and probably cost. You can't expect everyone to do that for free. There's a huge difference between those who care to profile and upload a few rigs for free and those who created a massive library of top class rigs. They surely deserve some more respect, even if you decide not to spend money. There's nothing "dubious" about good work been done and payment received.

  • Jumping on the devils advocate side here:


    Where's the line here?
    Sure, some people have pirated the profiles and others havent. But to say things like "after buying a $1500 KPA, $5 is peanuts" is kinda of missing the point.


    The simple fact is, that profiles are not demo-able. For me, $70 is a lot to throw down blindly for a "producers pack" without knowing how it will sound with MY guitars, with MY pickups and MY playing style.
    Its just not financially feasible to buy every profile you think you may use only to find that its useless.
    However, its not right either to build a sort of consortium in order to share profiles around the place. That's not fair either on the profile creator.



    Here's a thought for you though.....
    How many people here have not gone ahead and bought a real amp, and instead bought a Kemper? I am one of them, Im proud to say (hey, it's a Kemper forums after all! ;)
    Is the very nature of the KPA itself not a "lazarus soul" (forgive the use of the next word...) "stealing" type device?


    Say Messa, Marshall, Peavey and the rest all turned around and started claiming IP rights on their amp sounds. It could be the end of devices like the KPA, AxeFX2, 11 Rack, GSP, etc.
    But then where does it end? Pearl copyrighting a drum sound? but I digress...



    Poor show by the perpetrators, but I can understand why someone would do it.

  • Why do so many people think these are copies of existing sounds? If they were just simple copies, then why not copy them on your own? There's so much more involved to get these sounds right. Good microphones, mic pre-amps, knowledge and experience setting up these amps and to position the mics, good ears, good musical taste, access to lots of amps, even time and money to get these amps and bring them back, maybe even rent them for a fee. It's not a simple copy and it's quite some work and probably cost. You can't expect everyone to do that for free. There's a huge difference between those who care to profile and upload a few rigs for free and those who created a massive library of top class rigs. They surely deserve some more respect, even if you decide not to spend money. There's nothing "dubious" about good work been done and payment received.

    You spend a lot of time and effort trying to faithfully replicate the sound of a very expensive product. Just because you are a master of your craft, doesn't make your craft less "dubious".


    I understand your argument. You worked hard, you were meticulous, you used quality tools, and people are willing to pay for your work. That's fine.


    But, the people at Marshall also worked hard to create a product. And when you stick a (quality) mic in front of it and reverse engineer the tone, you are leveraging the work of other engineers. And if you make profit from their work without their consent, then IMO that is dubious.


    Rationalize all you like. But if some dude buys your profile and tweaks it to his taste, then gives it to someone else, how is that less morally correct than you renting or borrowing an amp, mic'ing it up, copying the tone, tweaking it, and selling the result?


    Seems there is a double standard being applied.

  • Except for their conscience, is there anything technically keeping someone from taking another person's profile and re-branding it as their own?


    Just from my brief glimpse at the forthcoming Rig Manager, it doesn't appear that the Amp Author and Rig Author fields are locked. What's stopping someone from slapping their name on an existing profile and uploading to the Rig Exchange?

  • There is nothing to stop that now or in the future. You will never get a consensus on this issue as everyone has a view to various degrees. I brought up long ago about trading with others that have profiles they don't use in trade for profiles I purchased and don't use. Many agreed and some wanted to hang me for treason. There will never be a last post to solve everyone's opinion. However there is a new update out...... :D

    "More Guitar in the Monitors" :thumbup:


  • My head is spinning...both of these opposing viewpoints make sense to me.

  • Fender, Marshall, VOX, etc, etc, are only too happy to know that a unit like the Kemper is micing up their amps and producing tones that emulate their amps....it's good advertising for them.


    If they wanted to take legal action they would have done so 15 years ago when Line 6 started modelling their amps.
    You can make a Profile, name it Fender Deluxe Reverb, sell it, Fender couldn't be bothered.

  • I'd think that profiles are really good advertising for a studio/producer. If I'd need to track or mix some songs professionally I'd go straight to Andy or Sinmix or any other good profile creator. Didn't know about them before, despite Andy being rather local to me.
    If I'd want to break into mixing/recording business I'd be profiling like crazy as well. :)

  • Fender, Marshall, VOX, etc, etc, are only too happy to know that a unit like the Kemper is micing up their amps and producing tones that emulate their amps....it's good advertising for them.


    If they wanted to take legal action they would have done so 15 years ago when Line 6 started modelling their amps.
    You can make a Profile, name it Fender Deluxe Reverb, sell it, Fender couldn't be bothered.


    +1.
    With good profiles the legends become even more legendary. :)

  • This is a murky and highly debatable topic, with lots of grey areas.


    Regarding the potential loss of revenue alleged by record companies to denounce mp3 downloads, the same could be argued regarding amp profiles... with the same weak reasoning. The fact I am able to download and use an amp profile, whether free or commercial, does not mean I will not buy that amp nor I would ever consider buying that amp in the first place. Just like with music, digital media allows users to sample and evaluate content, and ideally later "vote with your wallet" by purchasing relevant and worthy content.


    The key issue with "illegal" profile exchange boils down, IMHO, to an infringement of the applicable Terms and Conditions by those who purchased commercial rigs and decided to share them, even when that behaviour was explicitly prohibited by the T&C.


    In Spain we have a saying that goes like " you cannot put a closed door in an open range..." (no se pueden poner puertas al campo) and the truth is that morality governs digital transactions, rather than copy protection or legal enforcement. It is the Education of the users, and a decent and just pricing policy, that should be used as a countermeasure to illegal downloads of any kind.


    Just my (0.0)

  • That was well put "Morality governs digital transactions" which to me means "nothing governs digital transaction but your conscious"


    I think it's established you can't copyright a sound.


    But a Trademark doesn't require a loss of income to be enforced. It could also be anything that tarnishes the brand being trademarked.


    That said there appears to be disclaimers made by other companies vis a vi Line6 when using Trademarks. I saw this on the web:


    "All product names are trademarks of their respective owners, which are in no way associated or affiliated with Line 6.
    These trademarks of other manufacturers are used solely to identify the products of those manufacturers whose tones and sounds were studied during Line 6's sound model development."


    So if commercial sellers tried this tactic perhaps they'd be safer from any legal action?