Appalling fraud and theft

  • Hmmmmmm...!!! Someone is selling 7000 profiles on ebay. He says something like "All commercial profiles are inside (Ask for info and list ;) )"


    Brrrrrr

    He's an Italian guy, from Alberobello....selling also NI stuff....hope Andy or Armin do takes the time to notify eBay... X( :thumbdown:

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


  • He's an Italian guy, from Alberobello....selling also NI stuff....hope Andy or Armin do takes the time to notify eBay... X( :thumbdown:



    In his feedback history there's only one sale of the profile pack (59€)... so at least he's not being very successful taking advantage of other people's work...

  • Quote


    The way I look at it, time is money, and no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.


    I'm with you on this burningyen. I must admit I haven't found many profiles on the RE that match the quality of Andys from TAF but then again I haven't searched that hard because the profiles I own from TAF are really really good. £4-£5 is not alot for a profile of a certain amp!! Not only do I find the profiles great but the customer service from Andy is 1st class he's always on hand via email to help out or give advice. So I think they are worth every penny!!



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Kemper hasn't cost the amp makers a sale in my case. I love the versatility of the digital gear and more importantly in my case, the ability to play through headphones. I also like that I can have a very portable rig in the KPA and one of my monitors.


    Commercial profile vendors are providing a service. I'm happy to purchase their wares. But for any particular amp, I'm going to first try to find free profiles. I prefer to hold on to my money. Not everybody has time to wade through the crud, and there's no way to hear demo clips in advance of auditioning. Commercial vendors rely on their reputation to indicate their quality, not simply that they charge. Anyone can charge. It's a win-win - vendors get paid for their time and expertise and buyers get quality profiles at little effort. $10 for a profile pack is nothing - it might take you a solid hour to audition all the Rig Exchange profiles that might work for you, tweak them, etc. If you make more than $10/hour, your opportunity cost is higher than the commercial pack.


    But think about this - every good in the market is in competition with every other good. The KPA is as much about evolution as it is emulation.


    Everyone likes to throw their two cents in what should be legal, and also implies some indication of either morality or utility. But all of those things need a solid basis. For me, empirically and logically, the law should be limited to the protection of life and scarce property, not enforcing moral ideals or claims of utilitarian necessity. Where this is actually implemented, there tends to be progress and peace. I think it's clear the KPA is progress, and there's nothing violent about selling profiles.

  • The whole kemper concept is based upon capturing (stealing / borrowing ) the tone of the amp creators of which spent thousands of dollars making it , kemper does not produce original sound to start with , that is the foundation of kemper and kemper community , if you sell the profiles that you have done you are stealing from the original author of the amp ... You can not build business model upon this , the best way that comes to mind is donations , 'like what I do? Support me !'

  • The whole FREE SOFTWARE concept is based upon capturing (stealing / borrowing ) the CODE of the CODE creators of which spent thousands of dollars producing , FREE SOFTWARE does not produce original CODE to start with , that is the foundation of FREE SOFTWARE and FREE SOFTWARE community , if you sell the CODE that you have done you are stealing from the original author of the CODE ... You can not build business model upon this , the best way that comes to mind is donations , 'like what I do? Support me !'


    See what I did there? I guess the free software thing isn't capable of generating commercial income? I guess Apple is the world's largest theif.

  • The whole FREE SOFTWARE concept is based upon capturing (stealing / borrowing ) the CODE of the CODE creators of which spent thousands of dollars producing , FREE SOFTWARE does not produce original CODE to start with , that is the foundation of FREE SOFTWARE and FREE SOFTWARE community , if you sell the CODE that you have done you are stealing from the original author of the CODE ... You can not build business model upon this , the best way that comes to mind is donations , 'like what I do? Support me !'


    See what I did there? I guess the free software thing isn't capable of generating commercial income? I guess Apple is the world's largest theif.

    Correct! theft in digital world is a very blurry concept, and partly because of so called "theft" technology is moving forward in incredible pace.

  • Dont get me wrong, if I could demo a profile and see if it works for me then I'd be up for considering to buy it.


    It's the "blind test" nature of charging for something I dont like, especially if the cost is e70 for a pack.


    Yes there are often demos which are used to promo the profiles, but they dont ever sound the 100% same for you due to:
    1 - Different guitars
    2 - With different pickups
    3 - Played by different people.


    The Keith Merrow Profiles are probably my most played and favourited profiles. They sound amazing for the stuff I do.


    Would I buy another Keith Merrow profile pack? Well, I'd be VERY tempted (depending on cost) as his first profile pack for Kemper was
    (for me) absolutely brilliant! True, not all of the KM Profile Pack1 profiles work for me, but thats just down to my tastes.
    But I'd heavily consider buying it as its by a profiler that I trust.



    I wouldn't be too sure about some of TAF profiles without getting to try them first.


    I think Kemper should try to figure out a way to allow for profiles to be demoed on the KPA.
    It could be done like some plugin demos work. They could work 100% for a set period of time then de-activate, or they could work and omit a 5 second silence every minute or something.



    The thing is, does Kemper want to get involved in building a sub-ecosystem within the KPA world? It may be more hassle in the long term than its worth, and I'm not sure on the legal side of things. Besides, heres a question that I honestly dont know the answer to:


    Does the Axe Fx2 have profiles (or what ever they call them in AF2 world) that are sold by 3rd parties?
    Im just curious on this last part. :)

  • Now that Rig Manager is released I'm actually working on a web interface and some local software to automate re-amping DI's so that people can audition commercial profiles that I have on my KPA. Once it's ready, I'll be sure to let ppl know.


  • Does the Axe Fx2 have profiles (or what ever they call them in AF2 world) that are sold by 3rd parties?
    Im just curious on this last part. :)



    Only one I know of and someone put it up on the axe-change saying people shouldn't charge for profiles lol
    Selling commercial patches on the axe-fx would be a nightmare because nearly every update changes the sound

  • To say it right away. I will continue buying profiles, if I like them, because I don't have access to all the different amps nor do I have the time to profile myself. I appriciate the input of others to deliver us with new profiles.


    But now, what is the subject we are discussing? What is a profile? For me a profile anyway? It is just a file with a list of settings of an device (KPA). The sound is not made by the profile itself. It is produced by the KPA. There are over 60 parameter to adjust within the KPA to achieve a certain sound (that's what I read somewhere). Now - imagine you found out a nice setting on your real JCM 800 and you are selling this knowledge. As long as people buy - no problem. What if some nice guy gives this knowledge away for free? Just consider this aspect.


    Is there a way to have a copyright on the settings of your amp? Same, but more complicated happens with the KPA. What are we paying for, when we buy profiles? I think we pay for the time and the knowledge somebody put into profiling an amp. Like somebody enhances the sound quality of your legaly purchased mp3 collection by processing it with some software and stores it as a new file. What are you paying for? You don't pay for the songs. You pay for the work of processing.


    These are just thoughts. Like I said before. I still will buy profiles and won't give it away. This is not a matter of legally responsibility. It's just a matter of how you weight and respect others work and effort.


    Here also comes something into the game what is rather philosophic than practically. Just because it is possible, you don't have to do it. Just because others do it, you don't have to do the same.


    Mmmhh - still thinking about it . . . very interesting!!!

  • As the author of what has turned into a fascinating and roller coaster commentary on kemper and IPA and Apple, let me restate why I thought it was important


    If someone creates something, anything, through their hard work, and makes a commercial decision to charge people for using/owning/accessing it, then if other people try to gain access or ownership without paying them for that work, then that is deliberate fraud and theft


    That applies to anything, most of you are musicians of many stripes, some amateur, some professional, and if you ever created anything which you decided people should pay to have, track, album, DVD, and others conspired to obtain it for free, then that is exactly the same


    It is simply the moral question of trying to obtain for free something that is clearly meant to be paid for


    This has nothing to do with whether what they are selling is worth it, should be created the way it is or indeed is any good, if they decide to sell it, and others try to obtain it for free, then that is theft

  • People sure seem to have their thoughts on what stealing and theft is.


    Firstly, I find it rather simple. If something is for sale, taking it without paying for it is wrong. If profiles are done by folks, there was intent, time, effort, and a level of skill involved. Perhaps an ambition to supplement their income as well..


    It's their right to give it away something they made, perhaps, give away with a request for freewill donations.


    It's also fair to ask for payment for their efforts. The seller places a value on it. Folks are not forced to buy. It can be an agreement where money changes hands.


    I look for profiles because I chase tone. I perform live and record. Primarily a profile sounds right to me or it doesn't. I view profiles as worth money to me or not. I can hand over the asked price or determine it isn't worth the requested amount.


    Call it common courtesy, moral values, or honoring someone's right to be paid for their labors or respecting their gift, I don't see any fuzzy area.


    Some commercial profiles are not what I want. I don't buy them. I sure as hell wouldn't steal them. I'd accept the gifted ones and keep or erase them. A great free profile is a great thing to have. It's a terrific gift.


    A really good commercial profile is a great thing to have. The make wants money to allow it to be mine to use. I agree and pay.


    Thing can't just be taken and people think there's no harm done. They are trying to kid themselves and others and wrap it as some frontier justice or just want to say they are clever and everyone does it.


    It doesn't matter. Stealing is stealing.


    I appreciate the time and effort which goes into offering profiles. I pay if the price makes sense to me.


    Opinions are certainly abundant.


    I see this as clear as clear can be. Pay if asked or refuse to transact. Just taking without permission is wrong and will convince the folks that offer quality profiles that it isn't worth it to continue.

  • I like the idea of "previewing" commercial rigs through Rig Manager or a by product. So a rig is tagged and can't be transferred to the KPA permanently, only trial; it goes away when a condition is met, such as a time limit or a count limit; and could be set by the manufacturer. Seems like it'd be fairly easy to implement and cost for implementation could be shared by commercial retailers, i.e. per use or something.


    Software time bombs have been around for a long while and is worth considering as the KPA grows in popularity. Clearly, the Kemper team should be be considering a viable option to pirating to meet the growing need of its community.

  • In parts, this is really getting ridiculous now.
    Now some users start asking for DRM to be applied on an open platform the Profiler is? What the heck? Are you serious? Can't believe someone is seriously ASKING for DRM. Isn't it enough just to grow up and pay for what you want? I mean, you don't have to shelve out a fortune to get a pack of profiles. You would spend a lot more (money & time) to just travel to a music shop to TRY a real tube amp for a couple of minutes. The prices asked for commercial profiles are all but expensive. Some are really trying hard to invent problems instead of grabbing the guitar and playing.
    You don't want to pay for professional profiles? Fine, stick with the free ones. You don't need to "own" EVERY profile on this planet.


    Sorry guys, I had to vent a bit because this (in parts) looks like a kindergarden.