Definitive Clean Sense answer?

    Quote from nightlight

    It has to do with the way distortion works: as you add gain, you'll notice changes in frequencies, particularly with respect to bass, which becomes more pronounced the higher the gain is. For the same reason, you'll often find that a clean sound is usually perceived as louder than a distorted.


    I lack a detailed explanation, but it's something like this: the lower the frequency, the higher the level must be to achieve the same perceived volume.


    I agree with you but it seems like you are saying the opposite of Viabcroce as he was saying that the Vavg (or perceived volume) of a clean sound was LOWER than distorted sound therefore I was over compensating by setting clean sense too high. While you are saying that the clean sound usually is perceived HIGHER than a distorted sound due to the loss of higher frequencies and the bass boost in the gained amp.


    So which is it? Also when setting clean sense should one be balancing the Vpeak or Vavg of clean vs distorted? If Viabcroce is correct then it sounds like he is suggesting that Vpeak be balanced where as I am balancing Vavg.


    Not sure if it makes much difference in the long run, just so long as the user is happy with the sound is all that matters but it would be interesting to hear what C Kemper has to say.

    Quote from HappyPicker

    I set my gain to 0 and gently strum the guitar. Next I set the gain at 4 or 5 where there is a slight distortion, and gently strum again. I use the clean sense to adjust the sound so that the volume with gain at 0 balances the volume with the gain at 5.


    The distorted sound should be much louder in this scenario. If you want to set it up like a regular amp behaves, the clean sound should not be louder than distorted even when you continuously hammer the strings. I prefer to set the clean sense so that the cleans are slightly louder than what they would be in an amp though.

    Quote from HappyPicker

    I don't really see a clean attack as being any different than a gained attack. Why would one be more compressed than the other just because of the gain setting on the amp.


    How do you think distortion is attained? Peaks are cut, the more the higher they are. that's why you can "play" with dynamics on a crunch sound: the stronger you pick, the more distortion you get.


    [Blocked Image: http://www.antonine-education.co.uk/Image_library/Electronics_2/output_2.JPG]


    In the cut area, new frequencies are generated. This is called harmonic distortion, the thing you like when you use a distorted sound. I'ts generated by cutting peaks. So you get "more volume" (because more sounds are generated) but the peak level is actually lower, as you can see from the pic.
    The consequence of this is that, when you take into consideration the maximum output in order to evaluate a sound loudness (the way I assume the Profile does), a clean sound will be considered stronger than a more distorted sound, regardless the latter owning more harmonics hence more sound energy (loudness).


    To conclude, when you listen to a clean and a distorted sound and they sound the same to you in loudness, the clean sound usually has got a higher peak. But this peak is so quick that its energy is low in an absolute sense (even tho its power can be high), so you perceive the distorted sound to be louder.


    BTW, feel free to prefer whatever you like better :D

    Quote from HappyPicker

    when setting clean sense should one be balancing the Vpeak or Vavg of clean vs distorted? If Viabcroce is correct then it sounds like he is suggesting that Vpeak be balanced where as I am balancing Vavg.


    Well, I don't think there's a right or wrong way, it's not a religion. I'm just saying that the Profiler is not listening to sound the way human hearing is, so when Kemper say the cleans and the dirty sound are balanced in level, they refer to the peak values (it would be more complex to measure the RMS values). That's why you are setting CS so high.


    As long as you play live, it's a matter of the sonic effect you want, so again no rules here.
    When you record, a clean sound is often perceived lower than distorted sounds, but if you raise the channel's level the signal is likely to clip. That's why compression is used to raise the perceived loudness of a sound: when its overall energy is low, but its peaks are high (and saturate the "tape").


    Summing up, I believe you can do whatever you prefer. Of course, compression on the cleans is a most common effect, and with reason :)

    So are you saying that if you were going to try to achieve a nice crunch sound where gentle strumming was clean and harder strumming was slightly distorted, you would prefer to set the clean sense low and use a compression pedal to elevate the overall RMS volume. Rather than set clean sense high with no compression pedal to achieve a similar sound.


    In your opinion would a higher clean sense setting over emphasize the pick attack in this type of scenario? Whereas a lower clean sense with a compressor would raise the overall level without over emphasizing the pick attack?

    I usually set CS per guitar, not per rig, saving the input.


    You should consider that there are many ways to achieve the same goal. If you don't like the clean/crunch dynamics you're getting from a profile you can always just change its gain. I really don't think that CS is such a critical parameter. It doesn't change the sound, just its level.
    As Eng. Kemper wrote,


    Quote

    A correct clean sens setting is not crucial for an optimal sound. It is merely a feature to globally balance the level of clean sounds to match the level of crunch and high gain sounds. Still it should be turned down a bit for very hot guitars to prevent clipping. At the same time, if you feel that your guitar is too weak for clean rigs (compared to distorted rigs) and that bothers you, increase it. It will not color the sound or change the feel, just the volume.

    (note the "if that bothers you").


    And


    Quote

    The Clean Sens is just a gain control for your guitar, that has no impact on distorted sounds, but lets you adapt the volume of clean sounds. It is like leveling the clean channel of your tube amp to match the level of the distorted channel. It does not change the sound, only the volume. There are many advices around, that you have to adjust those two parameters correctly to achieve the optimum sound. Not true, just a myth.


    As per Eng, Kemper's words, CS doesn't touch the pick dynamic: it's like a volume control dedicated to clean sounds.
    OTOH, if you want to reduce the pick's transitory, a compressor would certainly do the job. But usually, when I just want to hear less attack but not alter the dynamic, I use the Pick parameter (Amp section).


    Last note: a higher CS setting will also change a crunch sound's volume, since its operates on the clean part of the sound, which is still present.


    Since you have your input clipping, my advise would be to reduce CS to the point of getting no clipping (even tho it's not really critical)


    Also, if a distorted rig sounds too loud you can just save it with a lower volume.


    Not sure this answers all your doubts, feel free to write again in case. Lots of helpful experts here :)

    HappyPicker,


    The high Clean Sens value that you get is probably caused by you playing your clean guitar very 'gently' when adjusting. Play realistic, play what you typically would play on a clean sound.


    I am happy that - after all - the Clean Sens function is well understood and welcome.


    A few more hints and explainations:
    It is not mandatory to check gain zero against gain 5.
    Check gain zero against the highest gain you usually play as a rhythm part.


    Your ear and your taste are the best level meters. When set correctly, clean sounds can have peak levels 12 dB and more above the distorted sound, while the perceived volume is equal. This is because distorted sound are compressed and its volume dynamics have been taken away by the distortion cutting the top and bottom of the waveform.


    Even RMS meters might fluctuate more than with distorted sounds.
    Your ear is a RMS level meter, but with a nice averaging function adapted by your brain. Trust it.



    This bit right here (especially the part in bold) should be in the wiki :) Thanks Christoph.

    great explanations viabcroce! thank you.. it makes me wonder.. if there would be any benefit to compressing the clean side (clean sense) while using a limiter (maybe spongy in nature) on the distortion side.. allowing the distortion to breathe a bit while lowing the peaks on the clean sense side.. I'm wondering if the amp attributes might contribute to this concept in some way..

    Gettin' funky up in here..

    I'm a little confused lol.


    It's about making sure that there aren't volume differences when using a profile that is clean and then going to one that is dirty. Right?


    But is this as a global thing? You can't just turn the gain on can you, unless you set it up as a midi control, or can you? So does it apply to changing patches, or when turning on stomps mostly?


    OR does it mean that when you have a profile and you apply gain, it can create issues with the tone if the clean and distortion sens are not set appropriately? Meaning that they combine to create the overall sound and need to be balanced or one can cancel the others elements out?


    I guess I'm asking if they operate in conjunction to create the tone or if they are solely about making sure the volumes don't have too much disparity when you add gain.

    Quote from PhilUK84

    I guess I'm asking if they operate in conjunction to create the tone or if they are solely about making sure the volumes don't have too much disparity when you add gain.


    The bold part.


    It doesn't really matter between patches, as you can set the level from patch to patch as you please. However if you go between clean and distorted within a patch (when riding your guitars volume, the gain on a patch, or using stomps), CS can balance their relative levels to your liking.

    Quote from PhilUK84

    Okay, thanks. So if I'm just playing a distorted profile and have no need to do anything clean, or vice versa I shouldn't even need to consider touching it, right?


    If you are happy with the relative volume of clean and distorted rigs, no need to touch it.


    But - If many, most or all of your clean sounds are too quiet (or too loud) compared to distorted sounds, it provides a global adjustment that can help balance them to your preference.

    Quote from HappyPicker

    Yes, it lights red if I strum hard. Most of the time it is green playing solo but if I hit multiple strings and pick aggressively it turns red.
    I am sure that input is fine. It just takes a lot to balance clean with gained response.

    I particularly find that lower clean sense settings yield the best results as far as playing articulation and tone in general. I always set my clean sense so the input LED never lights red, no matter how hard I strum; in fact it barely lights yellow.

    Quote from DukeOURL

    great explanations viabcroce! thank you.. it makes me wonder.. if there would be any benefit to compressing the clean side (clean sense) while using a limiter (maybe spongy in nature) on the distortion side.. allowing the distortion to breathe a bit while lowing the peaks on the clean sense side.. I'm wondering if the amp attributes might contribute to this concept in some way..


    You're welcome dude :thumbup:


    Well, the answer to your question would be: it depends on what kind of sound you're after. Everything is right in music, as long as it delivers the sound you're after/need.
    I kind of have the feeling you're getting caught in what you're afraid is a rabbit hole, while it is nothing more than a shadow on the ground :)
    I guess the easiest (and "cleanest") way of thinking the Sens controls is: Clean Sens as the level (master) knob of your clean channel, Dist Sens as the gain control of your Lead channel. When you use a crunch, edge-of-distortion sound, think of like using the two channels together (like having two physical amps playing together, one clean, the other one distorted).
    Sorry if I misunderstood your question, in case write again :D



    Phil, please re-read the post where I quote Eng. Kemper.
    The settings work for balancing two profiles, but also to balance the clean and dirty components of the same sound when the distortion changes (for example because you use your guitar's volume knob).
    There's no issue on the tone, clean sens is a master volume control, dist sens is a gain control which work on the dirty component of the sound. I.e. turning up your guitar volume, the distortion in a dirty sound is more the higher you set dis sens. (Under this respect well, it operates on the tone, too :))
    Trazan's response applies to clean sens only, dist sens is a gain control.
    If you aren't after something specific, leave dist sens where it is at. Or, feel free to play with it without fear, and trust your ears. If they tell you nothing for now, 0 is the best "all purpose" option for sure :)


    Quote from PhilUK84

    Okay, thanks. So if I'm just playing a distorted profile and have no need to do anything clean, or vice versa I shouldn't even need to consider touching it, right?


    Again, as much as the distorted profile has a clean component, clean sens works on a dirty sound as well.
    Using the two controls together would for example allow you to determine how high the sound level will be when you lower you guitar's volume know (clean sens) and how much distortion is introduced when you raise it (dist sens). Feel free to try and... play with them :D

    I have had the KPA for a while now and this is definitely one of the most misunderstood components of the Profiler (IMO).


    So - If the Distortion Sense is "only gain", then why have it? Ok, yes...I realize it's an option if you need more/less gain. But maybe people should just use the "gain" on the amp (as they would do with a regular amp) and eliminate all these recurring questions about it?


    Too many options sometimes causes too many problems. As seems to be the case here.


    So the definitive answer?? Well, "Distortion Sense" = It's gain only, so don't even touch it :)


    As for Clean Sense, well.......the thread continues.......

    My understanding is that you want the dist sense to adjust drive globally so changing a guitar doesn't require you to go into every rig and adjust the gain. So switching from a strat to a les Paul, you can adjust the dist sense and globally push harder or reduce the drive to taste.


    Not sure if that's an accurate view.


    Sean