Too much emphasis on "in the room" sound....Flame suit on!

    The room plays a big part - if you play in an empty basement room next to your bicycle - then the sound is very different from the sound of the same amp (or KPA via great speakers) in a recording room.


    IMHO depend the "In the room sound" on 3 things:
    a) We have to play as loud as we would when we play a real amp - and need some big speakers to move air (not 6" studio monitors or even headphones)
    b) Even when we use a real amp/cab - we never hold our head close to the speaker center. So the miking for the "In the room sound" must not be close to the center of the speaker
    c) The sound of any real guitar cabinet (next to us) can not be captures by a single SM57 close at the amp. So other or more microphones must be used to get closer to this sound



    When I profile any amp I profile in the same room where the amp is - and playback the captured profiles - in this same room - and try to get both sounds as close as possible.
    This approche is NOT possible if you put the amp into an isolated amp room and profile in the control room.


    It's myth also that this "miked sound" was invented because it sounds this great - a lot of players would love to get their "amp in the room" sound recorded or played via the PA - but this was not possible before the KPA. Or only in the studio via a lot of work - live (via PA) is this sound impossible because with a real amp - we need to close mike or DI the amp or get a total mass.

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    Edited once, last by Armin ().

    For me it's not so cut and dry. In my band there is another guitarist who only uses tube amps, and we have yet to play a venue where you couldn't hear his tube amp coming off the stage, even when mic'd. I've been through a lot of modelers, everything from the Boss GT-3 to the Axe II and nothing has been able to keep up with his tube amps until I got the KPA and CLR, but it's still not "amp in the room” tone.


    I look at it this way, people don’t go to a club to hear a band that sounds like they are lip syncing to a CD, that’s just not rock-n-roll. It has to be raw, there needs to be some feedback, there needs to be some 60 cycle hum, there needs to be some mic bleed-over, etc.


    I don’t record, so when I make profiles of my amps I try to duplicate a live setting which means terrible room acoustics, cheap mic’s, etc. So far it has helped a lot, but I can’t imagine ever getting “amp in the room” tone with a FRFR monitor, it’s just not going to happen.


    To me the bottom line is, in a live setting do you want to sound like a CD or do you want to sound like a live rock band, warts and all?

    Quote from SwAn1

    The whole article is a great read but scrolling down to the single mic placement there is a mention about getting an amp in the room sound: http://www.soundonsound.com/so…es/guitaramprecording.htm
    I'm curious if there are profiles that have mics placed 4 - 8 (or more) feet from the amp?


    I've recorded with mics around 3-5 feet. The problem is one typically of getting too much room and therefore noise, but mostly phase issues.


    Andy of TAF told me I'd have better luck going 8" out instead of 5' out, but he likes just doing that in the back instead of the front where I was doing it.


    My profiles sounded 10x better 8" away, with another on the grill, edge of cone, then the room mic did a few feet away.

    Easy solution for those who want the 'amp in the room' thing if they are running a poweramp and guitar cab - pull a profile from the line out of the amp, preferably a hotplate or similar device so you get the power tubes cooking a bit.


    Here's a profile I did of a Bogner Blue channel of my 2004 Ecstasy. Compared to the real amp, through a good power amp, it sounds alike through the same guitar cab.


    http://ge.tt/api/1/files/5yFT4NB1/0/blob?download

    I tried my Marshall with a monitor-style guitar cabinet once. With it aimed at my head, it sounded completely direct and dry. (it was bright, too). There was no "in the room sound". I moved the cabinet to a "normal" position, and it was no longer direct and dry sounding.


    I think speaker placement can make a big differencel.


    If you prefer the Kemper to have more of a reflected room sound at home, let the room do it for you. Try putting your cabinet where a normal guitar cabinet would go (even if it is FRFR), and don't aim it directly at your head. You have two separate outputs and EQs, if you need them to listen and record at the same time.


    I don't my have my live Kemper speaker (Bose L1 or Yamaha DXR10) aimed directly at my head when I am at the vocal mic. Depending on the size of the stage, it is typically 3 to 5 feet to my right, and about the same distance toward the back of the stage from me. The speakers are far enough away to get some room reflection, and the sound of the house PA makes it even bigger.


    For in-ear monitor gigs, I either have a little of the room mic signal added to my monitor mix (thist prevents the entire band from sounding sterile), or a small amount of a "room" reverb added to my guitar in the monitor mix .



    For recording, close-mic'ed rigs are much more versatile than rigs with ambiance that could not be removed. If Rigs included "room sound", they could only be used when that room sound was right for the song.


    Yep, these are scenarios I prefer a real cabinet. Open backed. Place it in a god spot/direction and it really fills the room in a beatiful way. Get the sustain and/or feedback in a very controlled way. I can do without the hum 8)

    "In the room" and "FRFR" are creations of the internet.


    Pro Studios, most guitarists and music stores have never heard of the words "in the room" or "FRFR".


    For me "in the room" means the sound of an amp sitting right in front of you, not mic'd up, not a recording, not FOH.
    Easy with the Kemper, poweramp and cabinet with guitar speakers, not PA speakers, Cabinet OFF on the Kemper....or DI profiles.


    However, if you're sitting in your lounge at home playing the Kemper into a powered PA speaker, you could say you're getting an amp "in the room" tone, because your lounge is a room. :)

    The only way to get the "in the room" sensation is to play in the room.
    You can't re-create that feeling you have sitting there next to a cranked amp through a 4x12 with anything else than that.
    IMO also recording a room mic (or even stereo) is neither as similar to that tone/feeling than close micing it to begin with.
    And close micing is a lot more practical live (bleed, reverb etc...).


    Sure it takes some time to get used to how that sounds, if you only played through your rig and nothing else.


    I guess this "issue" of having to "feel" the cranked amp on stage came up, because a lot of guitar players don't spend enough time on thinking how to place their cabs on stage, so that not only the front row and their knee-caps are getting some guitar.
    That's why they crank it (which is bad for most small/mid sized stages/venues) and get used to that feeling.


    that's my take on it.
    The best gigs I had where with great monitoring through a low backline.

    I think most folks have their mind set on what "in the room" means. I gave up on embroiling myself in the suppositions and often erroneous description folk use for tone and the live "experience".


    "Moving air" is but one thing to one person and quite different to another. I am inclined to think folks usually mean the experience of hearing multiple reflections from different directions in a closed space such as a room or hall, etc. The reflective surfaces add to the different tonality depending on the nature of the surfaces in the space. Nice spaces are enhancing to a performance, problematic spaces tend to get ugly results that get uglier the louder the performance gets. Our ears coupled with our brain is quite amazing in making us aware of the size of the space and the comparisons that we have learned over time that allow us to make very accurate determinations of the size and other feature of the space we are performing in.


    Placing mics at multiple distances and/or heights is done a great deal... problem is the room has to be "cooperative", the mics well selected, the skill of the mixing well though out. It's a lot harder than one might presume.


    The shorter, cheaper, and more manageable route lead to reverb or echo chambers which were/are real spaces with essentially a speaker at one position and mics at differing distance or distances from the speakers... also tape machines with multiple movable playback heard, spring reverbs, plates, etc. Algorhythm based reverbs have been and still are in use. Many of the settings on digital reverbs are meant to reproduce some of the chamber, spring, or plate devices.. they also are designed to simulate actual smaller or larger spaces.


    If one wants to have their Kemper and amp/speaker or FRFR sound like an amp in the room, the room is going to matter. The volume being employed will matter... The room will still be a factor.


    If what folks really mean by moving air is multi-directional experience of the performance? That usually means LOUD and not multi miced profiles. Real high volume in an actual space. More than enough to generate lots of reflections coming to the listener.


    I will share what I see as the best solution, First and formost is using whatever monitoring in STEREO.


    Listening to stereo reproduction is light years more convincing or 3 dimensional space than mono. Delay or reverb which is stereo is the ticket. Want a room of you choice to "play" in? Use a reverb which is good at it. The Kemper has a decent stereo verb. It is not abundant in room choices which can be dialed up quickly, but actual room are what they are unless someones is opening and closing curtains and add or subtracting materials which alter reflections.


    There are lots of players who do a good deal of live work and firmly believe stereo sound system use is silly or not good for an audience. Well, they are WRONG. Stereo does not mean the use of radical panning.


    Stereo reproduction is light years more convincing in regards to the illusion of experiencing 3 dimensional space than mono. Surround is the next level but the expense and logistics make it over the top practicality wise.


    At the very least, take a hard look at using a room reverb, even in mono there is some degree of dimensionality to be gained. The more convincing the reverb used and adding it as a part of a stereo reproduction or captured recording, the more "in the room" you can have at you disposal.

    Edited 2 times, last by 1fastdog ().

    My thesis is different.


    First of all, there is clearly different views on "amp in the room" sounds. But that is rarely seen separately on forums, to my surprise.


    Some think they miss the reflections of the room where the amp was mic'ed, especially for recordings.
    But the majority wants to have the same sonic experience from a "FRFR" speaker as from a guitar cabinet. This is not about room reflections. You listen to your FRFR in a room, where you would have listened to a guitar speaker, e.g. your rehearsal room. This room will give you room reflections in any case. Adding reflections in the profile would make the result less authentic, because guitar cabs do not add room reflections. It's dry.


    I believe it's about the bass responce. A 4x12 cabinet is a wall of speakers, that features a superb bass responce. This is the "moving air"! Most linear speakers have a much smaller enclosure and thus less bass responce.
    Add a subwoofer! For me it's crucial to have a subwoofer helping my monitor speakers to produce a satisfying bass responce.


    A less expensive alternative: play your 4x12 !


    Anyone here playing with subwoofer but missing the "moving air"?

    I think it also has to do with the frequency range of normal speakers vs guitar cabinets.
    And yeah, 4x12 moves a lot more air than a smaller monitor speaker for example, but I think also guitarplayers playing with something like a 1x12 combo compare that "in the room" tone with the signal you get out of the mic.


    I really think it's both of these things, and that literally being in the room. Mics don't hear like ears, they miss the brain for it.


    Would be interesting to see what people would think of binaural recordings of their setup. But I guess having to use Headphones to play also doesn't qualify as in the room experience^^

    I play live around 250 shows a year and have come to the understand it's nearly impossible to get that perfect sound night after night. I've got that perfect sound one night and had my heart sink the next show with the same settings too many times to lose my mind over it any more. I use an EV ZLX 12p and am happy with the basics of my tones. When I get to a show I do a quick Monitor out tweak with no FOH (2 minutes tops) and then turn up FOH and make sure they closely match what I have on stage and I'm done, Sure I could upgrade my FRFR or lug a 4x12 and "move more air?" but even they wouldn't sound so perfect on stage later on when they bleed me through the stage monitors and people start walking into the room. Trust me if I'm in a studio I want it dead on but live I'm not going to waste time chasing grail tones. I'm hired to entertain not play with buttons all night. Since I've stopped nitpicking sound for minimal gain playing has become a lot more fun.

    I don't think the internet expression, "amp in the room tone/feel" started off as a scientific thing....I think the internet discussion forums have now turned it into a scientific debate.


    The guitarists who first brought up the "amp in the room" subject were comparing their very first digital modellers into PA systems compared to their amps sitting right in front of them at home or on stage....what their amp sounded like to them on stage, not what the audience was hearing.
    Most guitarists don't care what the audience is hearing, if it sounds great to the audience but nasty to them on stage then they'll be at the nearest music shop on Monday morning buying a new amp and pedals.


    The "room" had nothing to do with it, whether the "room" was their tiled bathroom at home or a soundproof recording "room" in a studio isn't what they were talking about...perhaps they should have used a different word instead of "in the room", maybe they should have said "in your face amp & Cabinet tone & FEEL".
    You can "blow air" with a FRFR (hate this term), an FRFR sitting one yard in front or behind you is blowing air.
    But blowing air with a real 4X12 cabinet is a different kind of air...let say the two different airs have different EQs.
    That's what SOME guitarists are talking about, they want the 4x12/2X12/1X12 "AIR EQ & FEEL".


    Some people make a link between "room" and reverb...in other words "amp in the room" means natural reverbs that are created in whatever this room is that you're playing in..I don't think the "amp in the room" debate has anything to do with "reverb".
    What if you're playing your 1966 Vibrolux Reverb amp at home in your lounge and you have the Reverb on the amp turned up to 7...you've just changed the "room", you're playing in your lounge that is carpeted but your amp sounds like you're in your 3m x 3m tiled bathroom...but your amp is still blowing air through the 2X10 cabinet, so it's "amp in the room tone & feel" with a crazy reverb added.


    It's happened to me a few times in the last year or so.
    Guitarists buy Kempers, they plug them into their studio monitors, they're blown away with the tone, best thing they've bought in the last 20 years.
    But, they still keep gigging with their tube amps and pedals...why, because they want this so called "amp in the room sound/feel" and they think an FRFR loses that "in your face tone & feel".
    A few months later I say to them, "have you tried the Kemper through a poweramp and real Cabinet"?
    Then they buy a poweramp & cab (or Powered Kemper) and they're even more amazed at what the Kemper now sounds like...oh yes!, now they say there's the amp in the room tone & feel I was talking about.
    Having said that, some of them are happy using some kind of powered PA speaker, they don't feel the need to change over to poweramp/cab.


    Thing is, every guitarist wants to hear and feel something different, we know this, that's why we have so many different favourite guitars & pickups.


    For me personally, the Kemper through Studio Monitors has the "amp in the room" feel and tone, it has an even better "amp in the room" feel and tone through a high quality FRFR ( :cursing: ), and an even better "amp in the room" feel and tone through a poweramp and Cab. :thumbup:


    WARNING! Dont drink too much coffee first thing in the morning. :D

    As for the Bass being part of the in the room equation I think I agree. I used the subwoofer option on my EV ZLX 12P for quite a while and loved the sound but I was getting lost in the mix so I ditched the sub. My bass player and I are on speaking terms again lol. For anyone using FRFR for mid to high gain rock I highly recommend doing what I did originally with the Kemper. I noticed it didn't have the bottom end I was looking for (maybe that's the pushing air everyone talks about, not sure). Get your tone where you like it at home and when you get to a practice or gig add the EQ preset called "1x12 into 4x12". It's in almost every one of my profiles I use live. You may have to adjust for a boomy low E. Hope it helps someone out there!