Mono Loop in X and Mod stomp slots coloured by Stack section!?!

  • I have a Fender Acoustasonic Telecaster that has a piezo pickup in the bridge position and a magnetic single coil in the neck. It's set up so that you can split the signal using a stereo to mono Y splitter jack cable, with the signals from each pickup on its own individual mono jack.


    A thoughtful poster proposed the theory of being able to use the return input on the kemper for the piezo signal, then set up a mono loop in one of the slots after the stack. That way you could get an electric, driven tone using the neck pickup going into the main kemper input as usual, but then the more acoustic piezo tone would feed into the kemper bypassing the stack, giving the option of the clean tone and the ability to mix the two at the same time, depending on the position of the pickup selector on the guitar.


    This would be fantastic. However, having just experimented with it, it seems that the Stack section influences the X and Mod slots, even though in theory any signal arriving via a loop to one of those slots should be independent. Turning the Stack section on and off while playing through the loop set to 100% mix changes the HF, giving the effect of turning cab sim on when the Stack is engaged, and off when it is disengaged.


    This is all very perplexing and slightly perturbing, as it would then suggest that any pedals or effects that were in a regular loop after the Stack would be sent via part of the stack anyway, in effect doubling up on the Stacks influence (your signal passing once through it on the way out of the kemper through the send, then once again after coming in through the return). What gives? I'm running the latest firmware, by the way.


    Cheers,
    Sam

  • Hey Sam,


    This is not an official customer care section, and only willing/knowledge users would respond here.
    I'd suggest you to open a ticket on the main site, what you describe might be a flaw in the design if confirmed :)

  • I'm not too sure the Kemper is designed for the loop to be used as an input. A loop means that there's a sound going out of the Kemper and a sound going back in.


    This sounds like there's only a sound going into the Kemper. But there must have been some sound prior to the loop, which would have been sent back to the return, if an actual loop was being used. There isn't in this case and I'm not sure what sound should have been sent out by the Kemper. Maybe the signal post the stack, except there is no signal, since nothing is being routed through the preamp part of the Kemper signal chain.


    That could explain the undesirable sound. I don't this is workable, nor a bug.

  • I disagree. The Kemper should be totally apathetic to whatever signal comes in at the return : it's an Effects loop! Who's to say what effect has been used to mangle the sound? It doesn't really matter to the Kemper. As for there not being anything connected to the send, again, the Kemper shouldn't be bothered. If it was, I could just as easily connect it to the input of my mixer, but again, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.


    Effects loops were created to be able to put effects after the preamp stage of an amp (so effects like delay and reverb didn't get distorted by excessive gain or overdrive at the preamp stage). By being able to put the loop after the Stack section implies that the signal is sent out of the Kemper after the preamp, EQ and cab sections, and then returned before the delay and reverb sections. This makes the fact that the return signal is coloured by the stack somewhat strange.


    Cheers,
    Sam


  • Cool, will do:)


    Cheers,
    Sam


    Hey,


    any progress on the solution of this "problem" so far?
    I have upraded the firmware to 2.5.0 and experienced the same problem with my piezo equipped hybrid guitars.
    However on my previous firmware version 2.2.1 everything worked like it should (no coloring of the Stack-section), so I will downgrade again until this problem is fixed.


    I hope they fix it soon or someone posts a solution here, so users like me can enjoy the advantages of the recent upgrades.
    Cheers.

  • Here's the response from support (if I'm forbidden to post this here, mods feel free to delete!).



    while the complete effects section optically is located behind the stack section, X and MOD slot are logically located in front of the cabinet like in an analog enivronment. Therefor you might experience sound influences of the Cab in the Return. That is intended. I could only suggest to use Return and Alternative In in their function as Aux In, which would then obvioulsy miss Delay and Reverb. However you could use at least Space in the Output section.


    Cheers,
    Sam


  • That's interesting, so thanks for sharing.
    Actually I find it surprising that this is not documented in the Kemper manuals.

  • Thanks for the answers so far.
    I'm wondering if the order of cab and X&Mod has changed (accidentally, bug??) during the last few firmwares.
    I guess if you want to mix piezo sound with e.g. a cranked stack using the kemper the only way is to downgrade and use old firmware then. :thumbdown:
    It would be nice to be able to move those 2 slots before/after the stack/cab section.

  • That's interesting, so thanks for sharing.
    Actually I find it surprising that this is not documented in the Kemper manuals.


    It actually makes a lot of sense for the main uses of the KPA (direct out into DAW/multitrack recorder, direct out to front-of-house), so I'm not shocked that it isn't categorically stated in the manual. As it was pointed out, this mimics the way it would work in a traditional all analogue set up. It would be nice to have the option of putting the X and Mod slots after the cab, although I'm not sure if that would even be possible. I'd love for them to look into it, however.


    Cheers,
    Sam

  • If you use the parallel path and a mono loop in slot A for the piezo will the signal be mixed with the magnetic signal on main outs or is it possible to route the piezo signal to direct out and the magnetic signal to main out? Never tried it untill now. Maybe anybody has experience for this kind of routing.

  • Off the top of my head, no. Direct out is the signal passing from the input and directly through to the output, bypassing Stomps, Stack and Effects. As the Return input is part of the Stomps (the mono loop), this would also be bypassed.


    Cheers,
    Sam

  • Does anyone know a work-around without losing the DLY&REV funtions (maybe with newer firmware)?
    It seems I was not the only one experiencing this issue.
    All version newer than 2.2.1 that I tested had the here mentioned coloring and makes my piezo-setup unusable.
    Any help is highly appreciated!

  • Is the cab after Del & Rev as well, @hjskeffler?


    Quote

    while the complete effects section optically is located behind the stack section, X and MOD slot are logically located in front of the cabinet like in an analog enivronment.