Neither company publishes sales numbers. This is very common for many products. Lack of numbers does not negate the comment that Kemper has taken sales from Axe. Viabcroce gave you the analogy for this situation when no numbers are available. All products that are first to market lose sales to competitors that enter the market later. That's one of the risks of being first to market. To deny this calls into question your earlier statement that you are neutral. Also, using lack of numbers (where none exist) to dismiss a valid comment is somewhat specious.
Kemper Versus Axe FX II - My opinion
- drew_fx
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Kriswylde - "I don't have exact numbers ."
Yes, I suspected as much.
As I said, I love them both. Threads like this are a waste of time and energy. So..moving on.
I can give you some anecdotal evidence - myself and 3 of my guitar contacts all sold our AxeFX2s and bought KPAs and were incredibly happy with the decision. After about a year, no one is looking back. That's 100% of the people I personally know that owned both.
But bless Cliff's heart, the AFX is a great machine as well, no question about that. -
Kriswylde - "I don't have exact numbers ."
Yes, I suspected as much.
As I said, I love them both. Threads like this are a waste of time and energy. So..moving on.
Exactly because I really don't care to investigate further but I see the marketplace !!! Kemper's are out of stock sold out in many markets !!! I was gigging in Dubai recently and was getting emails asking where I bought my Kemper ...
I voiced my opinion and I'm sure I'm not that off !! and if I am, I don't really care !!! Love My Kemper
Have a good day !!
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To this day , I am so glad I never went the Axe fx route and bought a kemper 2 years ago. I was looking at both at the time..
With Axe FX he keeps milking you to buy a totally new unit with minor upgrades which when a new version comes out the previous version is worth less right away started with Axe fx then the ultra , axe fx 2 now its the Axe FX XL ....
I'm kinda glad he lost a big share of his market to Kemper.
I love my Kemper
I really don't think "he" lost a big share of his market to Kemper. Sounds like you need to do some research....
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I really don't think "he" lost a big share of his market to Kemper. Sounds like you need to do some research....
I really don't think "he" lost a big share of his market to Kemper. Sounds like you need to do some research....
I'm not a fan of the Axe myself but I don't think they would lose anything so to speak. There are way too many folks out there that have one, really enjoy it and sound great through it.
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Another angle: Right now, I think the main part is that fractal and kemper are both in competition with regular tube amps, really. They each (KPA and Axe-FX) lend each other credibility as a viable alternative to tube amps. They are not EXCLUSIVELY in direct competition. More like a joint symbiosis plus competition, with a joint "front" against tube amps in my estimation.
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Good thinking, Michael.
There's competition and synergism at the same time. -
Another angle: Right now, I think the main part is that fractal and kemper are both in competition with regular tube amps, really. They each (KPA and Axe-FX) lend each other credibility as a viable alternative to tube amps. They are not EXCLUSIVELY in direct competition. More like a joint symbiosis plus competition, with a joint "front" against tube amps in my estimation.
Well said!
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From a purely economic point of view, all goods are competing with all other goods to "earn" your dollar. You can say that the weekly pie sale stole sales from Fractal.
No numbers can prove anything - even if as soon as the Kemper was released, Axe sales dropped to absolute 0. Obviously, those numbers would point you to the theory that those considering buying an Axe bought a Kemper instead. But the only way to know that is to interview Kemper buyers. All economic data is historical data - it tells you what happened. Why it happened is a matter of interpretation.
That said, it should be obvious to anyone that the Kemper and Axe are very similar products and nearly direct competitors. For most people, they'll buy one of the two and no longer consider purchasing the other. A smaller group of people may buy both, as they do have different pro's and con's and can integrate nicely. In very rare cases, purchasing the Kemper may actually cause people to also want the Axe when they didn't want one before.
Regardless...to suggest that the Kemper didn't cut into the Axe's sales seems like absurdity to me. If I didn't buy the Kemper I'd have bought an Axe. Down the line I may purchase an Axe if I get really into effects, but as of now, Kemper "stole" an Axe sale.
Also, the idea that being the first to market is risky because competitors can come take "your" sales is also absurd. Every producer would die for a first arriver advantage where he has a de facto monopoly for as long as he has no direct competitors. The only thing you're at risk of is making windfall profits before your competition catches up.
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Speculation and fabrication of "facts" is rampant on the web.As it is in many other human endeavors (politics, advertising, etc.) The only way to discourage bullshit on forums is to present reliable source's facts and figures. Same thing applies to good journalism. Back up your thesis with quantifiable proof. Otherwise it holds no credence with me. And I will reject it as so much babble
YMMV. -
For me it is obvious that Fractal lost a lot of potential sales because of the Kemper, but the opposite is also thru. The difference is that Fractal had no competition in this specific market (high tech amp simulation) before the arrival of the Profiler, so they had to work hard (and they did) to keep up and stay at the top. Top that they now share with Kemper. All of this is very good for the consumers who get a faster evolution of this kind of technologie.
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Don't forget the cost of entry inherent in marketing a new, unconventional product as a viable alternative to what has been used and loved for 60 years. The thing is, the second movers can save A LOT on the marketing effort; they are entering a pre-existing market, not trying to build one from scratch. Sure, first to market CAN(!) have advantages, big or small. But it's not an absolute.
Sure, Kemper and Fractal are in direct competition for the flow of potential customers that look outside the tube world. That's where the capture rate plays in. My point was that that flow would likely be lower if there was only one product in the market.
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also good points, mike
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For me it is obvious that Fractal lost a lot of potential sales because of the Kemper, but the opposite is also thru. The difference is that Fractal had no competition in this specific market (high tech amp simulation) before the arrival of the Profiler, so they had to work hard (and they did) to keep up and stay at the top. Top that they now share with Kemper. All of this is very good for the consumers who get a faster evolution of this kind of technologie.
Except any AxeFX user that gives the Kemper a honest chance doesn't look back as the Kemper is undeniably better. I haven't seen too many Kemper users switch over to Axefx, if any, yet I have seen countless AxeFX converts to Kemper. Axefx had it's heyday with certain name players such as Bulb endorsing it but when it comes down to it is just a "boutique" version of a POD with really good effects. Why do you think the owner of Fractal freaked out so hard and got so aggressive/paranoid and came out so vocally against the Kemper a couple of years ago, bad-mouthing it and spreading blatant misinformation; and eventually integrated more "Kemperish" type features in the AxeFX. It really is in a whole different ballpark from his stuff and he knows it. The Kemper is a game changer and the new leader in digital amp technology. There I said it.
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I agree and I know I'm not the only one !!!
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"Except any AxeFX user that gives the Kemper a honest chance doesn't look back as the Kemper is undeniably better. "
An opinion spoken out of ignorance. If you owned an Axe FX 2 you would know that since firmware 15 quantum leaps in realism has been achieved by Cliff. With new updates that improve things almost every several weeks. The cleans rival Kemper profiles and the software and foot controller surpass it. And a side note ... its ability to replicate real AND fabricate new tones are things valued by many musicians.
I can understand if you need to feel your toys are the best around. No denying Kemper is very good. But your fanboy obsessing borders on neurotic with some of the silly "mine is better then yours" statements.
They are both wonders to behold and we are lucky to have access to them. Now go do something positive like make music instead of this silly hardware oneupsmanship you are engaged in.
"Except any AxeFX user that gives the Kemper a honest chance doesn't look back as the Kemper is undeniably better."
Want a dose of reality? Share this with folks you are referring to at the Axe FX forum. Lets see what happens.
Enough time wasted on this silliness.
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An opinion spoken out of ignorance. If you owned an Axe FX 2 you would know that since firmware 15 quantum leaps in realism has been achieved by Cliff. With new updates that improve things almost every several weeks. The cleans rival Kemper profiles and the software and foot controller surpass it.
I can understand if you need to feel your toys are the best around. No denying Kemper is very good. But your fanboy obsessing borders on neurotic with some of the silly "mine is better then yours" statements.
They are both wonders to behold and we are lucky to have access to them. Now go do something positive like make music instead of this silly hardware oneupsmanship you are engaged in.
Sounds cool bro. Put me on your ignore list please.
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[b]... If you owned an Axe FX 2 you would know that since firmware 15 quantum leaps in realism has been achieved by Cliff...
Enough time wasted on this silliness.Did you just one-up yourself?
Honestly, this thread is getting out of hand. The minute anyone says anything contesting the Axe FX (and this is the Kemper forum mind you), there's an immediate retort that the user must be a Kemper fanboy.
If the original user could post his opinion, other users should be entitled to it. Again, I'll point out that this is the Kemper forum. If you post the same thing on the Axe FX forums, I doubt you will get as patient a hearing and would no doubt be dragged under and then banned within the space of a few minutes, with the thread deleted too. Taunting us and saying we should go do it on the other board isn't fair: if you'd like to see what happens, why don't you post?
Please allow everyone to have their say about the Axe FX or the Kemper.
Just don't say anything bad or the trolls will come out. You don't want to see a p*ssed off Ingolf or viabcroce
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This is starting to be a Gear Page/Axe Forum debate...
The fact it that both units are exceptional and any one of us are lucky to have either. I think the original post and it's intent is being lost in the bickering.
I found Drew's original post insightful and very balanced weighing the strong points and minor weaknesses in the two units.As someone who has just purchased a Kemper I can tell that both units are great but they are different in function although similar.
I chose Kemper over the Axe FX not because I thought the tone was so much superior over the Axe, truth is they both excel in this.
I bought my Kemper because it is truer to my needs. I wanted an awesome collection of great expensive/priceless amps in one small package.
If I had wanted a multi effects processor with endless tweekable variables perhaps Axe would have won over but honestly for me it is more than I need or want from my amp.
Simplicity of use and design is important to me. Analog dials and buttons is how I best relate to my gear. I hate fussing around in endless program parameters searching for the right one.
I would almost have been happier if Kemper offered nothing beyond what the original amps offered. Preamp, Amp, Reverb, Tremelo, and speaker. It is nice that we have the other things but it is not something that I will use much.I just want great sounding amps and Kemper delivers. Axe would as well but it is just way to involved for my taste. I want to play guitar not program patches.
Perhaps it would help to reread the original post and restart the conversation based on what was offered and offer what we as individuals have found (if we have had the chance to play both) and try not to devolve into "My dad is stronger than your dad" arguments... Just sayin
