Harmonizer question?

  • Without knowing how you are trying to use it, or what you don't like about it, it is hard to make a suggestion. It works well for me.


    One General tip, if you are using it for dual leads:
    With all harmonizers (not just the one in the Kemper), it is generally a good idea to play the higher part, and have the effect play the lower part, a little quieter than the part you are playing.

  • Sorry for the vague post. Im using it to replicate some harmonies on some solos I have it set in the mod slot on the kpa and have it at -3rd. It just sounds really trebley and digital (for lack of a better word)

  • It also depends on what type of harmonizer 'quality' you want. I'm in a band that does several Boston covers, and also owner of a lonely heart by yes. both can be done with harmonizer settings but are different sounds.


    For a smooth harmony, Put it post amplifier (slot x or mod) and adjust the formant setting to taste as Paul mentioned. What may also thicken it up a bit is to have one harmony and then have the other harmony set to unison and backed off a bit to thicken the original guitar sound. I also use a lot of Chorus for the boston solo harmony tones.


    To get a 'grittier' harmony, put it earlier in the fx, before any drive pedals.


    I had an Eventide Pitchfactor, I much prefer the Kemper's harmonies.


    Pete

  • Dont use the harmonizer to often, just 1-3 notes in some songs.
    They harmony itself its quite good quality. What I hope they will add to an upcoming update is a delay setting for the harmonizer. If you set the harmonic tone to about 20-25ms delay and 100% mix it will sound more realistic since the notes aren't played excatly together. I Have a POD HD and there you can put the Harmonizer i L or R and add a delay with such setting. Thats sound more natural. Though the POD doesnt sound as good as the Kemper on simulation of course :)

  • By nature of the effect, a harmoniser will sound more digital the more extreme your settings for the first and second voice. At the same time, realise that a sound in isolation won't sound the same way in the mix. Look at something like Ballerina 12/24 by Steve Vai. The harmony sound is very digital, but sounds great when played against the rhythm part.


    As such, I wouldn't worry about it too much for live playing. If you're really finicky, in a studio situation, you could always layer the second (and third) harmony by yourself.

  • You are explaining the old world :)
    The formant correction in the pitch shifter makes those notes sound fully natural. Please try it out. Only available in the Profiler :)


    Haha, if you insist, Mr CK. ^^


    It's true that formant shift makes things sound "more natural", but Sir, I beg you to delve a little further and give us 100% natural. In the sense, if I play the harmony on a second guitar, it will sound like a guitar, whereas with the harmoniser feature, there is a "digital sounding" quack that works its way into the voices. I notice a similar trend with more extreme settings on the transpose tool. And this effect seems more pronounced when you hit your strings harder.


    It is excellent when compared to other similar products, but we all keep hoping for the greatest of all time whenever we look at that toaster/rack on our desks, Mr CK. ^^

  • https://soundcloud.com/arvind-jayaram/harmonizer-test


    Mr CK, the first part of the clip is the harmonizer at what I thought was an extreme setting, with one voice set to +13 semitones.


    The second part of the clip is with the harmonizer at a less extreme setting, -5.


    Formant shift and pure tuning were active for both parts of the clip. To my ears, the sound is more digital to me in the first part with the extreme setting. In the second part, it is less so.


    I hope you can also concur that there is a more pronounced "digital quack" in the first part than the second at least. Other users can also weigh in.


    Compared to harmonising with a second guitar, I believe there is quite a difference in the first part of the clip, but not so much the second part.


    I understand that this is the bleeding edge of technology and have least interest in making any kind of point other than the query, "Can it be made even better"?


    Definitely and still better than most other harmonizers out there imho. But when I think of harmonising, I think more of the twin guitar attack of Judas Priest and Iron Maiden than Vai. ^^

  • The +13 setting is extreme only by the choice of the dissonant interval.
    You get aliasing-like subharmonics that sound a bit computer-like.
    I guess this is what you mean.
    This is not a property of the pitch shifter, but of the chosen pitch.
    If you had two guitar players playing into the same amp, you would get similar results for sure.


    If you set it to even higher, but more consonant interval such as +16 (Third above the octave) or +19 (Fifth above the octave) you get much different results.


    Btw: Your example is not representing a simulation of two guitarists playing two lines.
    For this case you should engage the pitch shifter in the effect section rather than in the stomps section.
    It sounded to me that the pitch shifter was in the stomp section.

  • Hello CK - I certainly agree the example is to the extreme and it doesn't conventionally represent what 2 guitarists would play together as a harmony.


    You also hit the nail on the head by saying coming out of the same amp.


    I too agree your harmonizer approach is superior to most products overall but I've been saying for a while now there are only a few more things to do to
    make it even more realistic.


    If you could please add a user controllable delay for each harmonized voice and a user controllable modulation effect for each harmonized voice PLUS a filter/EQ for each harmonized voice.
    The delay amount doesn't need to be a second or anywhere near that.I'm thinking a 1ms - 150ms delay at most for each harmonized note.


    As you can appreciate two guitarists never have the same tone/EQ as the other and they are never perfectly in time and in tune with each other so having the above control could somewhat
    simulate two guitarists far better than what is on offer at the moment. Some of the best twin guitar harmony sounds would be from Thin Lizzy and a common approach by them was one guitarist
    was on the bridge pickup whilst the other was on the neck pickup. This is why the EQ option is required on the harmonized voice to try and simulate that + even when both were on the same pickup
    their amp settings and touch are always different.


    I have an Eventide H8000A and the above control exists in it, however, your tracking/algos etc.. are superior. If the above was implemented you would be leading the industry and satisfying
    your users with world's best practice.


  • I respect your request and the company Eventide, but I am afraid that all these methods even combined will not increase the impression of having two guitarists play a two voice solo by a significant amount. Can you provide us a clip with Eventide that demonstrates the effect?

  • I respect your request and the company Eventide, but I am afraid that all these methods even combined will not increase the impression of having two guitarists play a two voice solo by a significant amount. Can you provide us a clip with Eventide that demonstrates the effect?


    Hello again CK - I apologise but I don't have the ability to record & post a clip as requested. A recording verses a live on stage (mixed in the air) delivery/simulation are very different.


    Again I agree somewhat with your comment about it not being technically significant, however, different people and how they approach and deliver will vary on the % of significance.
    Some may get little whilst others will gain more.


    My suggestion/request is the best that I can come up with to further improve the current result. Is there something conceptually that you may be thinking/planning to further improve it?
    By improve it I mean to make it more realistic simulating two live in the room (on stage) guitarists?

  • I respect your request and the company Eventide, but I am afraid that all these methods even combined will not increase the impression of having two guitarists play a two voice solo by a significant amount. Can you provide us a clip with Eventide that demonstrates the effect?


    Maybe we're going about this request all wrong then. Let's put it a different way: can you think of anything the KPA harmonizer could do differently that would heighten the illusion of dueling guitarists?