Profile amp and cab separately to make a profile

A separate profiling process would definitely kill what the Profiler excels at most: the dynamic interaction between the power amp's transformer and the cab, which is where component-based modelling fails.
IOW, amps and cabs sound differently depending on what they are connected with, and modellers can't pick the real differences.
The Profiler has been conceived in order to ensure the most faithful reproduction of a rig: consider swapping cabs a huge bonus

Note that you can already profile an amp via a direct output; it will sound different tho. You can also profile a cab, but you'd need to drive it with an amp anyway: that is, by definition, a device able to supply a huge amount of current at its input in order to create great enough movement in the cone to move enough air to have us hear something

Not sure if your request/wish would result in a better tone...

I want the ability to profile effects. Just the current setting of pedal...no need to tweak it in the Kemper later (I could just profile different settings into multiple profiles).

The Profiles assimilates amps. Fx other than those gain/distortion/comp/eq-based work on a completely different basis, and would require a completely different approach. it would be like asking why your Ferrari doesn't go under water. Doable, but requires a different design.

Quote

A separate profiling process would definitely kill what the Profiler excels at most: the dynamic interaction between the power amp's transformer and the cab, which is where component-based modelling fails.
IOW, amps and cabs sound differently depending on what they are connected with, and modellers can't pick the real differences.
The Profiler has been conceived in order to ensure the most faithful reproduction of a rig: consider swapping cabs a huge bonus

Note that you can already profile an amp via a direct output; it will sound different tho. You can also profile a cab, but you'd need to drive it with an amp anyway: that is, by definition, a device able to supply a huge amount of current at its input in order to create great enough movement in the cone to move enough air to have us hear something

it just shows that the interactions between the amplifier and the cab are still unclear.

On the contrary, they are very clear. But they depend on the coupled devices, on an "individual" base so to speak.
If all the cabs' an all the amps' designs responded to the same accurate standard, then their interactions could be predicted in general. But the phase rotation a McIntosh A700 imparts to a 2,37 V, 1250 Hz sinusoid when driving a load (a cab) which is itself unique (not because it's unpredictable, but because its design is not known a priori) strictly depends on how the cab has been designed and works: how does the impedance vary with the frequency? What about its phase rotations as a function of frequency?... You know, stuff like that.

You can look at the issue from the cab's perspective as well: the way a certain signal is treated depends on the coupling with the source, which in fact also depends on the source itself.

IOW, when outputting a certain signal, a given amp will interact with a given cab in a way that can be predicted and modelled, provided you can perfectly model their (each one's I mean) behaviour in software.

Of course, when you resort IRs for simulating cabs, you give up most of your potential control over the cab "model".
OTOH, if you do not use IRs, your modeller has to be loaded not only with all the cabs and amps models it aims at reproducing, but also with a specific transfer functions for each of their combination. Or use a different technique.

Here's the great intuition from Kemper: capturing any single, specific interaction between amp and cab. Eng. Kemper has written about dynamic Vs. static amp/cab interaction.

Note that, if you want faithful simulations of all the possible amp/cab combinations, you end up with a very high number ("endless") of transfer functions nevertheless: we call them profiles.

Quote from Peteus

It would be great if the kemper could profile just the amp (pre amp and power amp) so it takes a line from the power amp and then profiles the cab separately. This way we could switch out cabs for impulse responses of well miced cabs (with more accuracy no affecting what it thinks the cab and mic are). Then when we plug in a cab we would get the "true" amp sound into the cab.

I know this is fairly obvious stuff and may have been requested but, if someone can explain why this can't be done that would be great

One way you could do this is to create a profile of the amp with cabinet and a profile of the amp DI'ed. This will give you the option of running it without a cabinet or with one.

Could someone do a test of what would happen if we shift the cab of the profile with cabinet to a DI'ed profile? I think the results would show us which part of the interaction might be getting lost when you just turn off the cabinet section.

I get this request as was about to mention it myself.

My starting point is I want a versatile live amp for amp in the room. I know the sounds audiences here are coloured from the mike and PA etc, but at least I know the starting point. All the interactions for impedance etc we currently don't worry about as guitarists. We buy an amp, plug into whatever cab we use, dial in the eq and gain and off we go.

The Kemper as it stands seems to have more focus as a studio tool or through FRFR speakers.

BUT - with the inclusion of the power amp in the Power Rack and Power Head, the concept of just pluging into a cab and off I go ( as above) is massively appealing. THEN having the versatility to record and go direct to a PA is a big bonus.

I don't have a Kemper yet so I might have got the wrong end of the stick here....and in fact this is my only nervousness in getting one, will it satisfy the amp in the room using a conventional guitar cab, knowing that most profiles are created with a cab and mike and then you have to remove that part. I know there are good live sounds but it always seems to be a compromise, hence why people push for FRFR.

Not sure I'm explaining myself very well, but if you could profile minus cab and mike to get a good profile of an amp....that would kill any another options out there...

I'm not a sound engineer just a simple guitarist and I think this would be a massive selling point....even if there was a way for companies to profile and I'd buy them rather than just be able to do them myself...

Maybe this is unnecessary as there are killer sounds to be had for a conventional set up, but I think it's needed as the Kemper would then be the ultimate complete package.

Am I making sense???

Quote from nightlight

Could someone do a test of what would happen if we shift the cab of the profile with cabinet to a DI'ed profile? I think the results would show us which part of the interaction might be getting lost when you just turn off the cabinet section.

One of the issues would be that you get the whole DI profile only when cab is on.
If you switch to another (virtual) cab you're anyway taking something out before adding the new cab (the "no cab" so to speak, which makes the DI profile sound faithfully tho).

I assume you could achieve the same result by profiling a conventional guitar amp through an FRFR speaker as long as you used a mike with minimal colouration...then I guess it's pure amp.

I suspect on it's own it would sound awful but then put through a regular guitar cab????

I assume DI always has a cab simulator on ????

There must be a way...this was confirmed last night when I played a gig and the sound engineer was dreadful...in fact our bass player ended up setting up the PA. As a result I don't think any guitar went through the PA - I guess this is my point, there are many bands who don't mike up their guitars and rely on the backline. FRFR speakers are not that common ( and don't appear to be cheap) so being able to use the Kemper as close to a regular guitar would increase it's versatility massively...and that would be easier by having a raw profile to run through your favourite cab..

Is this a mad idea ??

Rest assured you can use the profiler not only with FRFR but also in a conventional way with a guitar cab.
I've got great results through different cabs, and Kemper has announced they're working on even better ways to separate cabs and amp.
So no worries!