Profiles sold on Ebay

  • Hi folks


    interesting topic and discussion. The "gut feeling" is that this would not be allowed. However, the legal situation is not as clear in every case and may even be different or not yet existing explicitly. Profiling is something new and may be you can compare it a bit with sampling. However, Sound sampling may even be considered as "stronger" vs a profile that just represents sound settings.


    From the link http://www.law.berkeley.edu/jo…ol4/McGraw/HTML/text.html


    Zappa believes "If you're going to do sampling, you have to give some
    consideration to the people who have already gone through a lot of time
    and trouble to put specialized sounds on records, and not be a bandit
    and steal those things from somebody else. But then again, according to Picasso, "Good artists copy; great artists steal." Unfortunately, the law is no more decided.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L…urrounding_music_sampling


    A profile is basically the representation of a signal chain with special amp and room / microphone settings. Copying a profile is comparable to copying the signal chain in a physical way. Let s say I see a certain amp / cab plus microphone from a third party and replicate the same settings in my own environment to achieve a comparable result. This is certainly not the most creative way but not forbidden by any law.


    This does not mean that I am supporting to copy profiles but to make aware that the legal situation is not really clear. On the other hand the commercial providers of amps and cabs could also come in and say "stop profiling our amps". This is basically the same as selling profiles. Right?


    Just some food for thought


    Cheers
    Sacapuntas

  • I'm a lawyer but not an intellectual property lawyer. I expect the answer is that:
    - you can't claim ownership in a sound;
    - you can claim ownership in a "work"
    - creating a profile creates a "work" (a collection of 1s and 0s, like software)
    - therefore your created profile is likely protected from copying BUT a profile of your profile isn't be cause that is like copying a sound

  • SCPrice, this is what I think as well.


    A profile is basically the representation of a signal chain with special amp and room / microphone settings. Copying a profile is comparable to copying the signal chain in a physical way. Let s say I see a certain amp / cab plus microphone from a third party and replicate the same settings in my own environment to achieve a comparable result. This is certainly not the most creative way but not forbidden by any law.


    I'd go further: I'm not sure that a profile is the representation of a signal chain, and then copying a profile is comparable to copying the signal chain in a physical way.
    As a start, we can take mic placement out of the equation, this is not something the amp manufacturer did so is not part of the intellectual property.
    The point is that you could design a different physical circuit able to return the same sound as another amp. A profiler would be a copy of a circuit if only that circuit alone produced that sound. But the 1:1 correspondence can't be proved, I guess.


    As I wrote, a more accurate comparison would me IMO tone matching: when you copy an eq curve from a record you're taking a picture of something which could be realized in an "infinite" number of ways; you're not sampling the sound, and of course you're not copying/reproducing the chain of devices that produced that sound.

  • The legal ambiguity of the KPA is making me leery of owning one.


    Class action lawsuits creep up on shit like this and I dont want to be involved, seems like reason enough to hold a discussion to me.
    Keep in mind that there is no ONE point of origin of amp models across the globe and a possible reason none of the manufactures have not taken action yet just might be due to international laws. The amp manufactures could just be biding their time to act allowing a huge collection to be built up on the KPA side and for time to pass showing a decline of sales of their collective products all to which they could point to the KPA's capabilities.


    Not to mention that Kemper has distanced themselves from the selling of profiles even on these boards. "Commercial rigs and profiles" "Kemper Amps is not affiliated with content offered in this sub forum."Seems very disconcerting to me.

  • I've reported this before, but it's pertinent here. I had a Swart amp and called up Mr. Swart himself to ask about this very issue.


    He said he had no legal ground on someone copying the "sound" only copying his "circuit".


    He didn't have a problem using his Swart to "profile" as he understood my description of it. He only had a problem with someone using his personal brand and family name of "Swart" IF they profited from it. I can use his name if I give it away for free as far as he is concerned. But a Commercial Profiler might run into some issues as they are profiling off his "Brand" without asking permission or paying for the priveledge.


    I asked if he was concerned that Profiling his Sound would hurt his business and he said he wasn't concerned about it, he was just doing what he loved: making great amps.

  • If one can buy/sell reamps, then the same goes for profiles.


    Taking a profile and selling it as your own also wouldn't be exactly legal with free profiles from the rig exchange.
    Much less commercial ones.


    Profiling another Kemper and then using that profile you created yourself however seems to be a valid option in my understanding.

  • In the end, it's all an "Honor System" as it takes a lot of money to start suing folks.


    But who isn't mindful of the fact that you can't undo a forever bad digital reputation with any amount of money?

  • Some people don't care about digital reputations, because it's just an online identity and normally wouldn't interfere with your day job as a hotshot corporate exec or a guy working at a burger joint.


    I understand all the arguments about why this kind of activity isn't illegal, since the commercial profiles themselves don't have any inherent protections of their own against this sort of thing.


    Perhaps for people like JasperEADs (surprised you don't have a profiler and also that you don't want one because you feel that the Kemper might get shut down over some sort of copyright infringement), it's just hard to grasp why "the community" sees this as unsavoury behaviour.


    To break it down for you: People pirating commercial profiles are unlikely to ever give anything back to us. They're just grabbing up all the hard work done by someone to create profiles and are trying to take the profit for themselves.


    Such activity stifles creativity and the motivation for commercial profilers to get access to better and more desirable amps and create profiles for users. This is likely to drive up the cost, as is the case with the MW rig pack.


    So basically, guys like that are just screwing over all the rest of us and so are the buyers. It's the same story with music and mp3s in general. I don't like pirates in any form, because those scumbags can always rationalise how their activity is legal, because there is a majority of people supporting such actions so they can get stuff for free.


    F*ck Communists. You always got to figure out who's actually benefiting from the "sharing is caring" activity.


  • The difficult thing about pirating or sharing is that you can't say it is evil in general. For example:
    One guitarist has a commercial rigpack and recommends it to another one. The second one is unsure about the quality. The first one sends him some examples (lets asume they don't live nearby). That is already pirating. But B decides to buy the pack.


    If it wasn't for youtube and free downloadable songs, I would only know half the music I have bought on CD. Simply because you can't buy them in normal stores around my place.


    So the goal is not to make sharing an evil thing but to bring people to be responsible and reasonable. And rather buy a short amount when they like it, than stealing all of it.


    Thats my opinion about it.

  • I understand all the arguments about why this kind of activity isn't illegal, since the commercial profiles themselves don't have any inherent protections of their own against this sort of thing.


    I'm not sure I'd state so: not having protection doesn't mean taking profit of this lack is legal. If I create something and you agree with buying it at the condition that you don't resell the good, you're acting illegally as a matter of fact, because you're infringing our agreement. It's the seller he who makes the rules and writes "the contract", but it's you signing it...


    One guitarist has a commercial rigpack and recommends it to another one. The second one is unsure about the quality. The first one sends him some examples (lets asume they don't live nearby). That is already pirating.


    Again, I'm not sure about this. there's no God watching you and ready to punish... piracy IMO is all about taking profit of others' work and creating a business exploiting others' resources.
    I'd feel perfectly good about asking a friend to let me try some commercial profiles in order to evaluate a possible purchase. If I delete them I harm no-one's business, hurt no-one, pirate nothing...


    So the goal is not to make sharing an evil thing but to bring people to be responsible and reasonable.


    This exactly :)

  • Well the pressure that pirating has had under the guise of "I don't know what I'm getting myself into, I need a taste of it" has led to most companies offering Demo software at trial periods and Previews of MP3's.


    So that argument is largely 10-15 years old and not valid anymore.


  • Perhaps for people like JasperEADs (surprised you don't have a profiler and also that you don't want one because you feel that the Kemper might get shut down over some sort of copyright infringement), it's just hard to grasp why "the community" sees this as unsavoury behaviour.


    I do own a KPA, I dont feel comfortable with how this "community" is being run nor with how far Kemper Amps has distanced themselves from this issue.
    It's not hard to grasp why people would be pissed over the actions of a common thief though I have yet to hear of anyone who make commercial profiles paying dividends to the original amp manufactures either. After all, if those amps didnt have "that sound" you wanted, then what would be the point of profiling one in the first place?
    I know that dont own the physical amps that my KPA has "snapshots" of. So guess who's loosing money?
    In the end there is no right in this because someone is getting fucked outta cash either way but assholes like yourself like to jump on bandwagons, point, stare and criticize without knowing what your really talking about.


    I on the other hand like to play the devils advocate once and a while because you can learn new things when all the right buttons are pushed.
    What i have learned so far: 1) It sounds like there isnt a solid consensus among this "community" as to whether or not its illegal, but people like to act pissed and be fucktards when they can hide behind a pseudonym. 2) Im not the only asshole who likes to play devils advocate am I viabcroce?

  • Well the pressure that pirating has had under the guise of "I don't know what I'm getting myself into, I need a taste of it" has led to most companies offering Demo software at trial periods and Previews of MP3's.
    So that argument is largely 10-15 years old and not valid anymore.


    Oh, do not misunderstand me: I'm not saying profilers should make demos or something like that. Just saying that I'd not feel guilty at all if I tried some profiles before buying them or deleting them.

  • I do like the guys who offer tastes of their profiles. Andy has a bunch. Pete has them, started entirely free and still offers tastes here and there. Armin offered some.


    It's almost imperative that they do. MW has, but we haven't seen them yet. Which is a shame, because if he HAD offered just 2 freebies more would buy his pak I'm sure of it.

  • There is no law in this, only honour & faith. There cannot be a serial number, ilok id's or encryption, we release profiles to a target audience in trust, simply as there is no other way to protect.


    The big problem with the ebay listing is there is no end date. It gets sold, the resold again and again, this hurts, but an honest person selling profilesvwhere he no longer has his kpa is the same as most other software re-sellers.


    its about finding the fine line between genuine honesty and piracy.


    we have to just keep on swimming.

  • I do own a KPA, I dont feel comfortable with how this "community" is being run nor with how far Kemper Amps has distanced themselves from this issue.
    It's not hard to grasp why people would be pissed over the actions of a common thief though I have yet to hear of anyone who make commercial profiles paying dividends to the original amp manufactures either. After all, if those amps didnt have "that sound" you wanted, then what would be the point of profiling one in the first place?
    I know that dont own the physical amps that my KPA has "snapshots" of. So guess who's loosing money?
    In the end there is no right in this because someone is getting fucked outta cash either way but assholes like yourself like to jump on bandwagons, point, stare and criticize without knowing what your really talking about.


    I on the other hand like to play the devils advocate once and a while because you can learn new things when all the right buttons are pushed.
    What i have learned so far: 1) It sounds like there isnt a solid consensus among this "community" as to whether or not its illegal, but people like to act pissed and be fucktards when they can hide behind a pseudonym. 2) Im not the only asshole who likes to play devils advocate am I viabcroce?


    I understand your point and to a certain degree I'm with you, especially the getting fucked outta cash thing. Someone loses money, yes – that's probably the case. Though it also depends. I have so many profiles by now but if I didn't have them I'd probably still own the one amp I had before. But anyways – I think it's a huge difference if you create something on your own, with your equipment, talent and engineering skills and sell it as a profile. Or if you take commercial profiles you had nothing to do with and start selling them without permission. That's also the tricky thing with digital files. You can make unlimited copies of it and sell it again. A real amp you sell only once.


    Same goes for let's say drum sampling software and libraries. You get the sound of a tama or pearl snare without owning the physical thing. But if someone would put up digital copies of toontrack libraries or steven slate drums the case would be pretty clear. To me at least the same thing applies here. Same goes for mp3s you bought on the internet.

  • I'm not sure I'd state so: not having protection doesn't mean taking profit of this lack is legal. If I create something and you agree with buying it at the condition that you don't resell the good, you're acting illegally as a matter of fact, because you're infringing our agreement. It's the seller he who makes the rules and writes "the contract", but it's you signing it...


    The same rules would apply to a CD or a software, but people don't follow the rules. In this case, if I don't agree to your rules, but purchase the profile, what legal recourse does the original profiler have? What if someone copies the profiles from someone that bought them and then distributes them. And as you suggested, what if the profiler was profiled? There is definitely a lack of protection against piracy, for Kemper profiles as well as other digital content. I think it's wrong, but there definitely is a need for more protections if this type of behaviour is to stop.


    I do own a KPA, I dont feel comfortable with how this "community" is being run nor with how far Kemper Amps has distanced themselves from this issue.
    It's not hard to grasp why people would be pissed over the actions of a common thief though I have yet to hear of anyone who make commercial profiles paying dividends to the original amp manufactures either. After all, if those amps didnt have "that sound" you wanted, then what would be the point of profiling one in the first place?
    I know that dont own the physical amps that my KPA has "snapshots" of. So guess who's loosing money?
    In the end there is no right in this because someone is getting fucked outta cash either way but assholes like yourself like to jump on bandwagons, point, stare and criticize without knowing what your really talking about.


    Have you heard of any manufacturers saying that profiling is illegal? So where are you coming up with the theory that it is in fact illegal? Have you seen any of the other modellers where they give helpful names related to an actual amp? If the Kemper does it better, is that legal grounds for action? As cited in the Harley Davidson case, you cannot copyright a sound.


    Companies are not afraid of pursuing legal action when they feel their product is being infringed upon.


    In this case, the profiler does not copy any of the circuitry of the amplifiers, it clones the amp in a single setting well.


    The terms and conditions of the commercial profilers is unambiguous. You cannot resell their work. Whether Kemper Amplifiers agrees to the concept doesn't have any bearing on their work, their terms are clear.



    I on the other hand like to play the devils advocate once and a while because you can learn new things when all the right buttons are pushed.
    What i have learned so far: 1) It sounds like there isnt a solid consensus among this "community" as to whether or not its illegal, but people like to act pissed and be fucktards when they can hide behind a pseudonym. 2) Im not the only asshole who likes to play devils advocate am I viabcroce?


    Viabcroce is a pretty classy guy, I don't think people will mistake him for you or vice versa. What's your beef with him anyway?


    I've seen plenty of justification from piracy supporters like you. Blow hard, blow cold, you don't scare me or surprise me, as much as you try to cover up your Communist leanings with bravado.


    Oh, and my CD collection says I'm more clued in on the piracy debate than you and justified in advocating anti-piracy.


    [Blocked Image: http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/4/imag0031gw.jpg]


    Also, kindly refrain from using abusive language when referring to me and other forum members or I will be forced and extremely happy to respond in kind. And I will be explicit about you and your mother, so don't get me wrong, JasperAIDS, you're like a virus spreading that kind of Communist propaganda around here.


  • It's not hard to grasp why people would be pissed over the actions of a common thief though I have yet to hear of anyone who make commercial profiles paying dividends to the original amp manufactures either. After all, if those amps didnt have "that sound" you wanted, then what would be the point of profiling one in the first place?


    I really don't get that argument. You also don't pay dividends to the original drum manufacturer, for example, when you make drum samples.
    Or even easier, you also don't do that when you use your amp live, or in the studio to make a record with a band that doesn't own the amp.


  • its about finding the fine line between genuine honesty and piracy.


    we have to just keep on swimming.


    +1


    I'm totally out of these endless "legal or illegal"-discussions, because 1) they don't change anything and 2) they don't help anybody
    Normally these discussions are made by people who are using illegal file-sharing all the time, trying to find some silence for their conscience.


    We have to decide if we want to support other artists or not, if we want to help them or if we don't care.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    first name: Guenter / family name: Haas / www.guenterhaas.de


  • lol Thats right, let me drag you down to my level, dickbag. Im done with this conversation.