New profiling (Better cab separation)

    Quote from Deadlightstudio

    i dont like the Own Hammer in that sample..but mine and the 5150 impulse sounds really good :thumbup:


    I like 5150 too.
    If we will find good impulses we are winners. :thumbup:


    Sorry last test with reverb from Meambobbo.


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    Hi! I've been testing the new profiling process and this is short demo of one of the DI profiles of my Fuchs Overdrive Supreme with a Redwirez IR.


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    I've been comparing
    1) The Di profile with the IR loaded in my DAW
    2) The Di profile with the IR converted to the kipr format and added to the DI profile
    3) The same but activating the Merge cab option and saving it


    Testing them with a looper (I didn't want to reamp) and adjusting the levels, they sound identical.


    I've detected a bug. If you go to a rig with a merged cab, disable the cab and then browse to a di profile, the di profile sound dark until you browse to another profile and back to it.

    I have without merge.


    And this is merge on.

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    I just used the cab from the studio profile (not a fan of IR's as they never sound real to me, just like an eq on a DI signal). I'll play around some more but I may end up sticking to traditionally made profiles as I don't need the separation personally and I prefer the sound and effect of the non-merged cab so far.

    Quote from Per

    I just used the cab from the studio profile (not a fan of IR's as they never sound real to me, just like an eq on a DI signal). I'll play around some more but I may end up sticking to traditionally made profiles as I don't need the separation personally and I prefer the sound and effect of the non-merged cab so far.


    Is the cab part of a studio profile in this new way of capturing them different than an IR? As they say in the documentation, now the capture the interaction between the amp and the cab in the amp block.

    I can see these discussions are going to get way too scientific for me...kind of like Leo Fender invented a Strat to play Buddy Holly licks and then Yngwie got hold of it. ;)


    1) Am I correct in saying the main objective of the new Profiling process to separate the Amp and Cab completely is for guys playing their Kempers into power amps and cabs with Cabs OFF?
    So far it looks to me like you guys are doing DI Profiles to test IRs, has anyone plugged their Kemper into a Poweramp/Cab and done that test?


    2) The Pre-Amp Profiles Kemper provides us in the Factory Rigs, or old DI Profiles in the Exchange, do these now respond differently/better/correctly when plugged into a Poweramp/Cab?..or will only DI Profiles done with the new firmware work this way?


    3) Some amps have an actual DI Out, so you can do a Profile without a Load Box...correct?..or am I not understanding correctly?
    Doesn't a Load Box like the Behringer, etc, colour the Profile, or do you bypass the speaker sim in the Load Box?


    4) When you make a DI Profile do you end up with a DI Pre-Amp and a DI Cab from the one process?
    Does "merge" mean you now join the two together and you land up with a Profile that should sound like all previous Profiles without the Kemper "Juice" that was added to the previous Cabs?


    Sorry for the dumb questions...

    Guitartone: To my understanding the new profiling process is meant to have a better and more accurate separation of the amp and the cab part of a profile, respectively. In effect, changing the cab later on would be more "authentic" - apparently this separation is something that the guys at Kemper have not been a 100% happy with so far.

    Quote from pacocito

    Is the cab part of a studio profile in this new way of capturing them different than an IR? As they say in the documentation, now the capture the interaction between the amp and the cab in the amp block.


    I have no idea how the Kemper does it cab stuff. It's just following their instructions (two profiles, copy the cab from the miced one to the DI one and pick "merge"). As you mention the documentation describes it as a full interaction, which takes it up a level from the way most IR convolutions are used (basically a frequency attenuation based on the IR which is why it just sounds like an EQ on a DI, because that's exactly what it is), the Kempers amp block always sounded much better than any IR based system I've ever heard. With this new system I'm not sure what's going on.


    Maybe Christoph will give us a more in depth explanation of what's going on, whether it's still modeling the cab/poweramp interaction, or if it's simplified to being purely a frequency graph.


    I can imagine that it might be as the DI signal should contain the speaker/poweramp interaction if done correctly anyway as the speaker isn't bypassed. I'm not sure what else there would be to model apart from the frequency response after that (OK yes you could of course model some distortion characteristics of the preamp on the mic, and i guess maybe to a lesser extent the speaker and mics too, and of course room reflections etc, but i don't think any of that is modeled by the Kemper), in which case the merged cab is indeed just applying the cabs frequency response to the result, so it's basically just like an IR, which if that's the case, might account for why I'm not feeling it, and why it sounds like an IR to me rather than the (IMO) glorious Kemper speaker sim.

    Quote from Guitartone


    1) Am I correct in saying the main objective of the new Profiling process to separate the Amp and Cab completely is for guys playing their Kempers into power amps and cabs with Cabs OFF?


    Yes, but at the same time, sending the whole profile to the audience. Until now, changing cabs was trial and error as the separation between them was an estimation. Now, if the cab of a profile doesn't work for you, you can change it by one of yours (a real one or a DI) but the amp block is going to be a good representation of the real one.


    Quote from Guitartone


    2) The Pre-Amp Profiles Kemper provides us in the Factory Rigs, or old DI Profiles in the Exchange, do these now respond differently/better/correctly when plugged into a Poweramp/Cab?..or will only DI Profiles done with the new firmware work this way?


    The pre-amp profiles doesn't include the power amp, so they are different. Now, when you try to profile a DI amp, the KPA detects it and switches off the cab automatically so there is no cab. In previous versions, you got a DI profile but there was still something in the cab and, when you switched off that cab or changed it by another one, that past was missing. Sometimes was good, sometimes don't. Trial and error.


    Saludos!
    Paco

    @Guitartone -


    1. I think so. this gives you something that sounds pretty similar to your amp with the cab block on for FOH , but with that pristine no room sound/mush amp-sim sound, and identical to the original amp when played through the same cab but as a DI/preamp for that amp in the room effect for you on-stage.


    2. Only new profiles made in this way will sound differently. It doesn't change existing profiles.


    3. Amps with a DI out post poweramp (which is what is required for the new profiling) have an internal attenuator to bring that level down. All attenuators color the sound in different ways, so no setup will be perfect like this. I use a THD hotplate for this which tends to accentuate treble as the volume is pushed down, others even include their own speaker sims (you don't want to use this though) ideally you want as clean and true a signal as possible.


    The instructions say to profile after power amp, before speaker, so the fx out and some DI outs which go from the pre-amp wont be suitable.


    4. You end up with the amp and cab, but the way they're combined is different, all the speaker interaction is now part of the amp block. I don't know if once you merge the cab section it tries to solve the modeling component of the interaction between amp sim and speaker, or if it simply applies as a frequency response curve (like an IR), to my ears the latter, but I could be wrong. Only Christoph knows or could say there. From my experiments the results aren't identical to before.

    I'm curious as to whether this will affect the CabDriver functionality, which will still be important for the thousands of existing profiles.

    Go for it now. The future is promised to no one. - Wayne Dyer

    i was able to compare...Real EVH with settings from profiling...and Profile on same cab. Sounded extreme close, but the Kemper sounded a bit better to me :D the fizz was gone for example.


    the point is...it is not only good for guys using real cabs. A merged profil has the 100% pure cab when you save it after merging. You can use this cab with other Merged Profiles, without merging again.
    this will not work with cabs from old profiles..because they are not 100% pure/seperated. It works also with impulses yes...but too me that is not the interesting point.