New profiling (Better cab separation)

  • I thought the DI profile process in the new profiling method was the way to improve the accuracy of Amp/cab separation of the merged profile.


    I mean from what I understood, it was :
    Before FW2.8 :
    Amp part and cab part were separated by algorithms > approximation


    FW3.0:
    by adding a DI step in the profiling, the Kemper during the profiling could compare the DI profile to the Final Merged profile and could better determine the separation between the Amp Part and the CabPart...

  • I'd say that the whole (studio) profile is compared to the DI profile and, as long as the DI was taken while having the (same) real cab connected, the cab profile is correctly deduced.


  • FW3.0:
    by adding a DI step in the profiling, the Kemper during the profiling could compare the DI profile to the Final Merged profile and could better determine the separation between the Amp Part and the CabPart...


    I'd say that the separation is not done during the profiling process but during the merge of the cab. If the separation was done during the profiling process, merging the cab of the studio profile with the DI one would not be necessary in order to get the correct profile.


    I'd like to know how to proceed in order to change the cab of a merged profile. If you want to use a IR cab, do you copy it to the DI profile? Do you need to merge it? Do you need to copy it to the merged profile and sustitute the original one? What's the correct procedure? What do you think?

  • I thought the DI profile process in the new profiling method was the way to improve the accuracy of Amp/cab separation of the merged profile.


    I mean from what I understood, it was :
    Before FW2.8 :
    Amp part and cab part were separated by algorithms > approximation


    FW3.0:
    by adding a DI step in the profiling, the Kemper during the profiling could compare the DI profile to the Final Merged profile and could better determine the separation between the Amp Part and the CabPart...


    No - the KPA have no information from what profile you merged the cab- i think you it take the cab profile(IR) from the studio profile and merge it with direct profile.There are no calculations made between the two profiles - no differential calculations and so on. You have predicted cab from studio profile and this is the cab IR you can merge. No comparation is in the process between the two profiles.


    But you have to ask the KPA team if you want to know how it is done.

  • I don't understand what's so complicated?


    Take a DI Profile, press the Cab button, pick an IR you converted or a Cab made during the DI Profiling process...done.


    Or am I missing something?


    So why do you need to merge the cab (push that option labeled "merge cab" ) when you copy the cab from the full profile into the DI one?


    Do you need to do that merge with other cabs? Coming from converted IRs or from other profiles? If you want to copy the cab from another profile, you will choose a merged one or a not merged one?


    Sorry. It's not so clear.

    Edited once, last by pacocito ().

  • No - the KPA have no information from what profile you merged the cab- i think you it take the cab profile(IR) from the studio profile and merge it with direct profile.There are no calculations made between the two profiles - no differential calculations and so on. You have predicted cab from studio profile and this is the cab IR you can merge. No comparation is in the process between the two profiles.


    But you have to ask the KPA team if you want to know how it is done.


    The process says:
    - Take a DI profile and save it.
    - Then take the studio profile.


    Maybe the separation is done by comparing the DI profile you take as a reference for profiling the studio one.


    Or maybe is done in two steps, the first one during the profiling and the second one during the merge.

  • The process says:
    - Take a DI profile and save it.
    - Then take the studio profile.


    Maybe the separation is done by comparing the DI profile you take as a reference for profiling the studio one.


    Or maybe is done in two steps, the first one during the profiling and the second one during the merge.


    SO the best way to test that is to:
    1. take the di and studio profile
    2. Put some white noise against studio profile with cab On(Amplifier and Eq off) only and record it
    3. Merge the cab from studio profile to the di profile
    4. Put some white noise against di profile with merged cab On(Amplifier and Eq off) only and record it
    5. Compare the frequency spectrum's of this two.


    In my opinion the both cabs profiles are the same.


    The only difference is that you profile the di amp and how it respond to the cab impedance - becouse the KPA and solid state amps "behave" more solid to the output impedance then the transformator output of the tube amp.
    So the KPA with DI profile "want to behave" with di profile with solid state amp as your profiled tube amp with your cab.

  • It seems that not all amps can be DI profiled with the current beta. I have a hand wired 18 watt EL84 amp, and I haven't been able to create a DI profile off this one.


    Normally, when you create a DI profile, Kemper recognizes that it's DI and turns off the cabinet section. With this particular amp, for some reason that doesn't happen but Kemper thinks there's a cab. As a result, you can't merge, and selecting a cab from another merged profile doesn't sound right.


    Still some work to do for Kemper engineers before 3.0 is final, I guess.

  • I had the the same difficulties in understanding the changes the in 3.0. Burkard provided me with some information:


    Before 3.0 the cabdriver algorythm was used to separate the DI profile from a studio profile. While this "guessing" method worked nicely most of the time, it did not always delivered optimal results, wenn driving a guitar cab.


    With 3.0 the profiling and the resulting profiles themselves were not changed. But there is a new autodection in the profiling which will detect when you are creating DI profiles and automatically disable the cab section of the resulting profile. In the second step, when you are adding a cab to the DI profile, there is the new "merge" function. This will simply turn off the cabdriver on the monitor out when the "cab off" option is enabled. This will route the DI profile to the monitor out without further alteration.

  • when you are adding a cab to the DI profile, there is the new "merge" function. This will simply turn off the cabdriver on the monitor out when the "cab off" option is enabled. This will route the DI profile to the monitor out without further alteration.


    So, if you don't merge the cab, the cabdriver will be still active and merging the cab is the way to go. ¡Thank you!


    I don't understand what's so complicated?


    Take a DI Profile, press the Cab button, pick an IR you converted or a Cab made during the DI Profiling process...done.


    Seems that you were missing something... Based on Tylerhb information, you need to merge the cab.

  • 1. Create STudio Profile
    2. Create DI profile
    3. copy cab from Studio profile
    4. Paste cab from studio profile to DI profile > select "merged"
    5. Save new profile as "Merged"
    6. Done!


    Stay Metal!


  • Then, if you want to use the same cab with all your DI profiles, you need to merge it with them.

  • This gives the "amp in the room sound" with the DI profile. It sounds great! I have done around 8 different DI's and when used through the same speaker, it sounds like the amp much more so than disabling the cabdrivere ever did.


    Each speaker will interact differently with the amp and as such the speaker used when DI'd will reproduce accurate sound when the KPA is driving it. The amp settings would be dialed in for that speaker anyway.


    Merging compared with the full studio profile is slightly different, but you end up with both the DI and Studio profiles for comparison and use either way.


    This is huge for me!

  • I've seen a few people mentioning DI profiles done with FW 2.7.4... Are none of you concerned about the possible incompatibility with 3.0 when it comes out? I guess if you're expecting to have to redo anything you're doing now, it doesn't matter, but for those that don't know, the 2.8 pdf document says "Also don’t use these hidden capabilities in other recent firmware revisions. Resulting Profiles might cause compatibility issues in current firmware."
    Is this not a concern? Sounds like there are probably algorithmic differences between 2.7.4 and 2.8+... And when 3.0 comes out, are people going to be putting 2.7.4 DI profiles on the exchange? Could be some problems with that, no?


    I really want to try the DI profiling, but I've been holding off on it because of that sentence...


    Anyone have any thoughts on this?

    Edited once, last by GOlson ().

  • 2.7.4 does not do DI the way that 2.8 does from what Kemper Co. has stated. The older firmware profiling preamps is different from 2.8, which now detects the lack of a speaker/microphone input and thus disables the cabdriver. The old firmware would not do that.


    The statement means that any profiles (at least DI) done with 2.8 up will not be backward compatible but should work with everything 2.8 and higher.


    if you are gigging I would not do anything until 3.0 comes out, which is supposed to be this month.

  • 2.7.4 does not do DI the way that 2.8 does from what Kemper Co. has stated. The older firmware profiling preamps is different from 2.8, which now detects the lack of a speaker/microphone input and thus disables the cabdriver. The old firmware would not do that.


    The statement means that any profiles (at least DI) done with 2.8 up will not be backward compatible but should work with everything 2.8 and higher.


    if you are gigging I would not do anything until 3.0 comes out, which is supposed to be this month.


    2.7.4 does have the hidden option to enable DI profiling though, like 2.8, so I took that statement to mean that enabling that feature on any FW before 2.8 would result in compatibility issues with FW 2.8 and beyond?
    I don't know... Regardless, I am gigging, so yeah, I'm just going to wait for FW3.


    *Edit* At least, in 2.7.4 the button 4 will light up, as if you're enabling it... Whether it actually does anything or not is another question. I haven't actually tried DI profiling in 2.7.4 with that button engaged.