Acoustic Amp profiles

  • In as much as I admire all the great tones Kemper offers for cleans, crunch, overdrives and such, I still (currently) prefer to keep a separate signal dedicated to an acoustic amp for my acoustic needs.
    Unless I'm mistaken, there currently doesn't to be too much to select from.


    I have tried a handful of acoustic profiles from RigMaster, but they don't seem to compare for (I suspect) these reasons.
    1) Several originate from an acoustic Boss pedal patch into a clean amp profile. (If I recall the orientation correctly)
    2) The others I've selected I believe were profiled more for a Hollow Body acoustic signal. These (for me) seem to peak out the input signal real easy.


    I'm bringing this up this thread since I would expect others might too benefit from similar solid body piezo profiles capturing those sweet spot EQ's from an actual Acoustic amp. Such as Trace Elliot, Fender Acoustic's etc.


    That said, I think my next step will be to try (my first attempt mind you) at profiling my Genz Benz Shenendoah 60 which I still have available in my arsenal of equipment. Granted there could be better candidates to do this with, but I'm merely beginning with what I have.


    To do this correctly, I suspect I'll be needing two mic's to make this work.
    One dedicated to capture the 6.5 woofer output and the other to capture the bullet tweeter.


    While my personal guitar preference is a Parker Mojo, I'm sure others using Musicman, Carvin and like guitars would benefit from such profiles.
    Thoughts / Suggestions and any Rig Manager solid body piezo uploads are of course welcome.

    Happy Kemper

  • IMO, an acoustic amp must not influence the instrument's sound except for its on-board processors: it only has to make the signal stronger for properly feeding the power amp you're going to use.


    I'd strongly suggest you to try profiles w/o any Amp and Cab sections.
    Think of the Profiler as an acoustic pre with EQs, compressors, reverbs and other fx: it doesn't make sense to profile a linear amp, there can't be anything more linear than the Profiler w\o... a profile :D


    The guitar you use won't have any influence on the amp you're going to profile, so the only question would be "how (much) this acoustic amp is influencing my guitar's sound if I disregard its tonestack and its effects? And, do I like it?".


    Also, in order to honestly reproduce a good acoustic sound you'll of course need to use a linear medium (monitor, PA, HPs etc) and not a guitar cab (sorry if this sounds obvious to you) :)

  • Whilst I understand the logic of not using KPA amp and cabs for an acoustic profile, logic doesn't always work. Firstly from what carsnguitars is saying he wants to profile for a piezo guitar not an acoustic. Secondly, acoustic amps definitely add something to the party when you put something through them and they differ from one another. That may well be mostly down to the way they are EQd but they obviously colour the sound in other ways and hopefully that is what the KPA will capture. I have not yet found a good enough acoustic or piezo profile on rig manager either and would be really keen to hear the difference that a decent profile of an acoustic amp might make.

  • I'm not sure I follow you about what a "piezo profile" is. Apart from some special profiles Armin did, as I wrote you don't profile a guitar, but an amp. What is a piezo amp?


    Some available profiles are meant to simulate some acoustic guitars, and they may well have been tweaked in order to sound like some piezo guitars played through an acoustic amp, but that's a different story. BTW, this could be one of the reasons why you did not like any of the ones you tried :)


    I also agree that any amp has got its own sonic signature, but if I were the OP I'd try and squeeze the most out of my Profiler anyway.
    I gave my previous answer because, from what he wrote, it seemed to me that he believed he had to profile an acoustic amp in order to get a good acoustic sound.
    I believe that, by trying and use the Profiler as a pure acoustic preamp, he could get a number of benefits: the first coming to my mind is he would discover (if I got it right) something new and powerful; another one is, he'd realize how eq and compression (and ambience fx) alone affect an acoustic guitar, which would be invaluable for me in terms of musical experience an ability to chase my acoustic tone.
    Nothing wrong in profiling anything tho :D

  • I see I created some confusion with my original thread title. So I edited it for clarity.
    The previous title was mainly to target an audience using solid body piezo guitars to get an acoustic sound.


    Restating, I've found the available acoustic offerings in RigMaster uninspiring and very synthetic sounding.
    Mainly since (at least the ones I've found) are sourced from Boss, Zoom and Acoustimax pedal simulations.


    I can (still) get a much more satisfying sound patched directly to my Shenendoah 60 or a even a soundboard for that matter. Granted... EQ settings add a lot in capturing the sweet spot.


    This led my to question, why wouldn't the profile process be able to capture the character, nuance and dynamics of an acoustic amp profile just as well as any clean amp profile?


    Going with the recommended approach, I agree much can learned with EQ, compression and ambient fx settings to keep things simple and I do follow the linear argument.
    I am familiar with such techniques and will experiment more using no Amp or Cab trials.
    Perhaps a no Amp and select Cab trial(s) as well.


    But I still believe there'd be value in capturing the identifiable characteristics between say a Fender Acoustic, Trace Elliott or other like acoustic amp and the Kemper I expect would do a fine job at it.


    I recognize Armin from other postings on this board. (with high respect too).
    I gather he's done some commercial profiles with such acoustic amps and I have to look into those.


    Thanks

  • This led my to question, why wouldn't the profile process be able to capture the character, nuance and dynamics of an acoustic amp profile just as well as any clean amp profile?


    Certainly no issue in this, as long as the target amp's characteristics do not exceed the Profiler's profiling ones :)

  • There is a Carvin V3 profile, that is older. I have even gotten an acoustic tone with an SSH style strat, with no piezo. The secret was turning off the cabinet, then doing some eq for whatever guitar you use. When I use a piezo equipped guitar with that same profile, it is even better.

  • I've since discovered reproducing acoustic piezo signals via the Kemper isn't really the best approach.


    I didn't mention this before. but one of my goals here is to consolidate my stage footprint some by eliminating the acoustic amp out the equation and delivering acoustic tones by other means. But that aside...


    Sorry to say, I now believe I've been "barking up the wrong tree" with an acoustic profile approach.
    This is not to say this can't be done, there are simply better ways to achieve these sonic results.


    I now see the resolution being connection vs. any profiling condition.


    Rather than taxing the Kemper profile to deliver these tones, there is much to said about driving an active piezo pickup via an isolated signal to a powered speaker, thereby allowing the Kemper to do what is does best.


    Approach: Since powered speakers can handle multiple channels, leveraging a high quality DI dedicated to acoustics using a separate channel of the DXR10 has merit. The other channel dedicated to Kemper electronics.


    "Y" cabled from the guitar, this approach better provides the mix/separation/isolation characteristics I'm after, still maintaining control at the guitar level and moreover reducing/simplifying stage equipment footprint.


    Regardless of which quality DI is implemented, an isolated wired approach (at least for me) offers more stage flexibility than any acoustic profile summoned via the Kemper. Nothing implied against Kemper here in any way!


    Some of the DI contenders I'm currently looking into are:
    Fishman Aura 16, LR Braggs Para Acoustic
    Some too like the Fishman Aura Spectrum, but that unit seems to have more than what I need for my purposes.
    YRMV

    Happy Kemper

  • Well, if you exclude amp and cab on the Profiler you actually get a DI, with lots of fx and EQs... what didn't you like with this approach?
    You could sculpture your favourite tones with a coherent approach and keeping your stage footprint as is :)

  • cKemper - I do recall the Dirk Baldringer Acoustic A-D profiles from before, but confess I omitted those during a re-amp. X/ Knowing now they've been engineered for Piezo's, I'll certainly bring them back into the fold. Thx.


    viabcrose - My best success to your recommendation has been typically to keep the AMP active while excluding the CAB. Granted this doesn't make a lot of sense logically, but I've had my best success adjustments this way for a given profile.


    What was missing from the suggested approach was the ability of blending clean electronics dedicated to one channel and an acoustic tones the other. Or I perhaps changed the standards mid-way. :/


    Beginning this thread in the Profiling section now seems more appropriate elsewhere since this has nothing to do with (and certainly no knocks towards) the profiling process.


    But, as pure as any acoustic profile currently is or becomes, the practice of mix/blending tones adding that additional vibrant flavor can only be best achieved through separate channels. IMO


    Having nothing but admiration for Kemper and it's abilities, I'm only sharing a connection strategy which maintains the benefits of this blending technique.


    So, in-as-much as I'd be looking to consolidate equipment, it wouldn't be at the expense of foregoing this blending option. You gotta know, we guitarists want it all. ;)

    Happy Kemper

  • carsnguitars, thanks for sharing.


    My approach would be: Acoustic gigs: RMI/Lehle Acouswitch.
    Gigs with Acoustic & electric: Kemper (but I still have to check my acoustic with Kemper)
    Using an electric Guitar with Piezo? I don't really know. Perhaps Electroc to Kemper & Piezo to Acouswitch with an added Lehle Switcher . But that has to be checked as well...

  • You can mix or blend tones using the Parallel Path feature.
    I hope I got your question correctly.


    cKemper – Parallel Path = Sheer genius…


    Forgive the pun, but how ironical it is being so close to Christmas you offering up this “Easter Egg”. ;)
    (Trusting you get the humor)


    I have to admit that my original read of the Parallel Path option, I failed to grasp its application benefit towards Acoustics, so I dismissed it. Thank you so much for redirecting me to it again.


    Per you suggestion, I re-read and actually experimented with this technique and it indeed (ingeniously I might add) livened the output of the acoustic profiles I was working with like never before.


    Merely saying Whoa or the like does little to explain the power of this “gem” of a technique deserving way more attention.


    Moreover, you and your team deserve all the accolades that can be offered for making this both possible and available.


    And to think, I was so close to abandoning use of acoustic profiles within the Kemper arena. :pinch:


    Now with a better understanding of this fabulous little tool available in an EQ arsenal, I’m truly excited to be able to summon profiles across the complete realm of tones. (Allowing Kemper to do what is does best) :thumbup:


    Under certain conditions, wiring a separate and isolated acoustic chain still has merit, but the need for an additional DI in order to enhance an acoustic signal seems mute given this Parallel Path option.


    Mmmm - Humble pie doesn’t taste so bad after all. :rolleyes:

    Happy Kemper

  • I admit I didn't understand a word of this thread, so forgive me for adding my thoughts on the subject.


    1) The best acoustic profile for electric guitar I've heard is from "fremen" who did not share it publicly. I'm still trying to persuade him to either sell it or gift it out. His earlier attempt was put on the Free Exchange (don't know if it's still there) but it was very good.


    2) Acoustic guitar. I've not tried profiled acoustic amps if they are any. Are there? I've only tried through regular electric or bass guitar amps and they work "ok" but not the best results, as should be expected.


    3) Acoustic amps require an expensive cable. If you use a cheap cable, you are killing a LOT of "natural" frequencies. I've toyed with differing cables and high quality cables are worth the price for greater sound quality.


    4) I HATE piezo alone. I hear Alex Lifeson using it for Rush songs and I cringe. I expect quality for Acoustic and piezo's capture nice finger fret noise and nasal treble, but they don't catch a natural mid-frequency-quality necessary for great acoustic recordings or live renderings.


    5) Microphones are essentially in my book for great acoustic recordings or live work. They can either be a mic on the guitar, or a mic IN the guitar (I'm using an iMix), but even then, I use an iMix AND an exterior microphone. I was using a TLM 103 but I'm not happy with that tone. Perhaps the wrong mic or too large a size (1") I get much better results with a 1/2" condensor. I didn't like the Fat Head w/Lindahl ribbon I used for Acoustic (MBritt uses for his profiles for electric, btw) I did get good results with an AKG C1000S a few times, but that may be my room/mic pairing. I recently purchased another one (sold the old one long ago) and am re-trying to get earlier good results. The jury is still out on this mic.


    BTW, I'm using a Taylor 510. Tell me if any of this is off-base, or orthogonal to the thread (i.e. not appropriate)

  • I HATE piezo alone. I hear Alex Lifeson using it for Rush songs and I cringe. I expect quality for Acoustic and piezo's capture nice finger fret noise and nasal treble, but they don't catch a natural mid-frequency-quality necessary for great acoustic recordings or live renderings.


    I hear you dude!
    I HATE PIEZO ALONE :D


    While chasing an acoustic guitar I had the opportunity to visit Leonardo Petrucci's workshop and try his acoustics (he uses the real Martin patterns, BTW). I was surprised at how good his "piezo" sounded, and discovered that it was a really special piezo indeed. Then I realized that it's not the piezo in itself, but thee kind of frequencies it picks up when used as a saddle.
    The iBeam completely changed my mind about piezos, and I'm certainly going to have one installed on my future Acoustic.


    Try one, you'll change your mind! I tried his guitars on a simple Mini Chorus and they sounded great. Guitars were actually good, but in the amplified sound I found nothing of those nasty tones that made me hate piezos :)


    HTH