Kemper (w) my own power amp and my own *real* [ non-FRFR ] Guitar Cab ....... some questions please ......

  • Hey all - first post here - found this forum from TGP.


    I have a Kemper on the way and was just doing some research.


    Im going to use the KPA with my own actual "normal" [ non-FRFR cab ] 2 x 12 guitar cab and a Quilter Toneblock 200


    The website says:- " Play it live - The monitor output supplies a cab sim free signal for your (build-in) power-amp and cabinet on stage, while the FOH receives your signal with the cab sim intact. "


    It seems that %99.99 of all profiles I have seen anywhere are all " mic-in-front-of-speaker " profiles and not amp-only-DI profiles.


    Given I will be using my own real / proper guitar cab [ 2 x 12 Weber Blue and Celestion Ceramic ] is the above bolded website info real / correct. ?


    - does this mean that the KPA profiles are now 2-in-1 being a DI and non-DI version ?


    - if not, are they saying that the profiling methodology is able to perfectly separate the cab tone from the amp tone even though the profile was done with a mic ?


    -is this something new in. 2.7.4 ?


    - is this even possible ?


    - for those also doing what I do, how does it sound going out from the. Monitor-Cab-Free output ?


    If the above is all true and good and real, it will be fantastic for people like me who want to use real-existing-guitar-speaker-cabs live on stage.


    Ben

  • Welcome.
    At the moment Cabdriver already does a great Job in separating amp and cab.
    In the future (FW version 2.8 onwards) this separation will be further improved.


    So yes, it is possible and happening right now.
    There's also a thread here about the new profiling methodology

  • And you can turn the cab sims off for the Monitor Out to your Quilter, while leaving them turned on for the Main Outs to FOH.

    Go for it now. The future is promised to no one. - Wayne Dyer

  • Maybe its just me, but i almost never get a good result turning cab simulation off when runing it into my 4x12


    It's just you.... lol jk


    For me it works great. I am using a Carvin DCM1540L and 2x12. If I leave the cab sim on it sounds muddy/too bassy.

  • Wow - that is amazing - my sincere thanks for the info.


    Is the 3.0 F/W days / weeks / months off ......or is there no real ETA on it. ?


    For people like me who intend to mainly use the KPA for live gagging use, this is. "home-run" news. :)


    Ben


  • Most of the capabilities have been available for quite a while. The ability to identify the cab portion is what's new - but the cabdriver capability has been there for a while. Or, perhaps I don't understand which of the functions is the "home run" news to you ...

    Go for it now. The future is promised to no one. - Wayne Dyer

  • Hi Zappledan.


    I'm more than happy to be corrected, but my understating is as follows:-


    Took me a couple of reads of the attachment in the release note, but here it is:-


    The current profiling algorithm and methodology automatically splits the profile into two portions: an
    Amplifier Profile and a Cabinet Profile - it does this regardless of whether your are profiling with a mic in front of the speaker -or- with a DI after the power-amp-but-before-the-speaker.


    Then the current Cab Driver algorithm does its best to guess / estimate the best separation point between the amp and the speaker.


    This is the reason that current DI profiles dont sound "quite right". To elaborate further, even though there is no speaker being mic'ed when doing a DI profile, the current Cab Driver algorithm will still guess / calculate and then apply its best seperation point between the amp and the speaker .... except of course that with current DI profiles there is no speaker to separate out as it was done with a DI


    Firmware revision 3.0 "fixes" this


    3.0 enables perfect separation between DI Amplifier Profiles and Cabinet Profiles as any new profiles created without a speaker cabinet [referred to as "Direct Amp Profiles" ] are automatically assigned to the Amplifier Module only with the Cabinet Module switched off and totally out of the algorithm.

    So ..... in short, with 3.0 Firmware - anyone can super-easily DI profile their own head and then run it through their own power amp [ like a Quilter Tone block ]. of choice and their own real proper guitar speaker cab of choice [ no FRFR cabs needed ] and it will " Kemper'ize " their own amp as close as a Kemper can.


    You can still profile the usual way too if you prefer and are using. FRFR cab.


    In short - for live use, with 3.0 - you can now go post-speaker full amp rig tone of your choice to FOH [and foldlback or your in-ears if you want ] -and- amp profile of your choice in to your own real existing guitar amp cab for you on stage.


    3.0 now makes the Kemper a true and real Amp duplicator / replacer for guitarists to use live as they
    want.


    The only losers that I can see are the FRFR cab makers as guitarists will now be able to use their own real cabs on stage as they always have and get the full Kemper benefit live, whilst at the same time, giving the FOH / Foldback / In Ears the full post-speaker profile at the same time as they get. "their own real deal" next to them :)


    My Kemper doesn't arrive for a few more days yet, but the above is my understanding of the new 3.0 world.

    Please - if I am wrong - someone please tell me :)


    Thanks, Ben

  • I think this is correct, Ben. Of course, to make the distinction between the amp and the cab requires profiling twice so that the amp portion can be subtracted, and the cab portion can then be more precisely identified. At least, this is my understanding, so Paults can correct me if I'm wrong ;)

    Go for it now. The future is promised to no one. - Wayne Dyer

  • At least, this is my understanding, so Paults can correct me if I'm wrong


    LOL! I have the same understanding.


    "Direct Amp profiles" are not made without a real guitar cabinet connected to the amp. They are made with a DI box between the amplifier and speaker cabinet. They have the amplifier's dynamic response, without the sound of the cabinet. And, they do not have a "Kemper Cabinet".


    They can be Merged with a "Studio Profile" (the current method) to create a profile that sends the Cab + mic sound to the PA, and the "Direct Amp" sound to your solid stage power amp and guitar speaker cabinet.



    The only losers that I can see are the FRFR cab makers as guitarists will now be able to use their own real cabs on stage as they always have and get the full Kemper benefit live, whilst at the same time, giving the FOH / Foldback / In Ears the full post-speaker profile at the same time as they get. "their own real deal" next to them


    To many, the "full benefit of the Kemper" comes from using FRFR cabinets. Others want to use guitar cabinets.


    When I switch from a high gain rock sound to a sparkling clean Fender sound, I want my onstage sound to include the change in cabinets and microphones. I want to hear the Speaker section of the Kemper change from the sound of a 4x12 V30 cab mic'ed with an SM57, to the sound of a single 12" Eminence open back speaker cabinet mic'ed with a large diaphragm condenser mic.


    When you use a regular guitar cabinet onstage, you will hear the cabinet's sound with every amp profile. If every amp profile you want to use will sound great through a 4X12 V30 cabinet (for example), then you will be very happy.

  • Yep - my comment about the FRFR cab makers was a poor attempt at humor :) :(


    The brilliant thing with 3.0. is that for live use *if* (a) you want to use post-speaker-full-rig-and-cab profiles and run them through a FRFR cab you can - no change there- but now with 3.0 you can (b) load up a pure-post-power-amp-only-DI profile and run it through something like a Class D amp. [ ie: Quilter Tone Block ] and then into your own real guitar speaker cab [I have a great 2 x 12 Weber Alnico + Celestion Ceramic]. and it will sound like a "real" tube pumping in to an actually real (non-FRFR] guitar cab.


    Prior to the 3.0 FW (b) above was only possible by letting an algorithm makes its best guess - hence the hit/miss nature of running DI profiles live without FRFR cabs....... now the algorithm is replaced by actual real-world hardware separation ...... no mathematical and digital guessing needed.


    That's why for people like me who plan to replace their existing tube heads [ and even most of my efx ] with a Kemper for live use but who also want to keep using their awesome sounding guitar cabs and speakers, this is a big, big game-changer .


    I have no doubt that with 3.0 we will now start to see all new profiles [ free or bought ]. come in "full" mode and "DI" mode .......... not to mention that as long as you have a good suitable DI like a Radial JDX or a PDI 09. Or an Ultra G100 or similar, profiling your own or your colleagues amps now could not be easier ie: no mic issues, mic placement issues, mic pre-issues, room-reflexion issues, room acoustic issues etc........


    Good times !!!! :)


    Ben

  • Maybe its just me, but i almost never get a good result turning cab simulation off when runing it into my 4x12


    I've experienced the same with certain cabs, where I prefer to keep cab on. So it makes sense to me :)



    The current profiling algorithm and methodology automatically splits the profile into two portions: an Amplifier Profile and a Cabinet Profile - it does this regardless of whether your are profiling with a mic in front of the speaker -or- with a DI after the power-amp-but-before-the-speaker.
    Then the current Cab Driver algorithm does its best to guess / estimate the best separation point between the amp and the speaker.


    Correct, but, as I answered on tgp as well, if you do not try to switch the cab off you can use the full DI profile (which is cabless) with an external cab, and... voilà :)


    PS: welcome here :)

  • Thanks Gianfranco


    Given 3.0 FW will explicitly have this feature, I would think Kemper will include at least a small number of new or re-done Factory Profiles that are " post-power-amp-before-speaker-DI " profiles so users can at least begin hearing / trying / messing with this new profile format (?)

    Ben

  • Possibly :)
    OTOH; DI profiles already exist and you can start having fun since day one with a real cab. There are so many variables regarding how an amp has been set before profiling that it having been DI-profiled with the standard technique is just one of the aspects of the overall sound. Fear not! :)

  • Thanks Gianfranco


    Given 3.0 FW will explicitly have this feature, I would think Kemper will include at least a small number of new or re-done Factory Profiles that are " post-power-amp-before-speaker-DI " profiles so users can at least begin hearing / trying / messing with this new profile format (?)

    Ben


    Yes, this is quite imagineable.

  • It's just you.... lol jk


    For me it works great. I am using a Carvin DCM1540L and 2x12. If I leave the cab sim on it sounds muddy/too bassy.


    FWIW...I run a Powerhead into a 1X12 for rehearsal. Had the cabs turned off last time at rehearsal, the singer said it sounded too thin, turned it back on, he was happy. So much for turning the cabs off...