Kemper KPA vs. Axe-FX II (Yes, another one...please read!)

  • I could type a two page essay discussing each point you made, but lets not go there because I already know which unit you'll be playing very soon...good choice. :thumbup:


    Good thoughts. One thing, though...I think it is actually infinitely harder to recreate really accurate, good clean tones than overdriven tones, because much of the nuance is lost in the "noise" of distortion. In clean tones, there is nowhere to hide. I know overdriven tones are more detailed and complex (because there is more going on), but the vast majority of digital/modeling clean tones just blow. I vehemently disagree with your assertion that you could plug in a Redbox or ToneLab and have good clean tone (I note that you said, "reasonably", but if reasonably = Redbox/ToneLab/etc, then it's not good enough). I can get very usable overdriven tones from most modelers...I have yet to find a true, workable clean tone. That's why the Kemper appeals to me...if it can truly capture the magic, snap, and response of a good clean tone, I'll be all over it.


    FYI, I've also tried the HD500 and ElevenRack...neither is good enough. They're OK...good, even. But not close enough for what I want. I'm picky. My greatest strength is my ear. And if it doesn't sound good enough, I won't use it. Neither of those is good enough for me to use.


    But, I digress. I appreciate your thoughts. Good info. I don't much care about the flame wars (other than wanting to avoid them). I'm more interested in what will work better for me. As I said, I'm leaning toward the Kemper because I LIKE my amps. Between the Road King and the MOD50, I have just about every sonic base covered that I could imagine. If I can capture those in one box, it would be awesome. I love the greater flexibility of the Axe-FX but I'm afraid it will be overkill for me. I like the option of more effects but probably won't use most of them. Quality of delays and reverbs is crucial, because those are the staple effects I use.


    Anyway, thanks for the input.

  • Ha! Now that IS something that I think all people who have used modellers can argue about - accuracy of clean tones versus distorted tones.


    To me, nothing else except the Kemper gets the distorted tones I want. None of them. But clean tones, I'm pretty happy to use most modellers.


    And I use loads of clean in my music, as well as mid-gain and crunchy rhythms. Also plenty of high-gain too.


  • You say that you want to nail the tones of your current rig (that's my interpretation). For this I would probably recommend the kemper, because that's exactly what it offers you - i.e. the ability to take a profile of your amp (one specific amp setting at a time).
    Keep in mind that if you want to nail THAT specific tone and THIS specific tone, then that would best be done by having two different profiles ("presets", if you will, although that terminology is wrong) and switch between them, rather than tweaking on the fly. The kemper takes a profile of an amp at ONE amp setting at a time, so it doesn't capture the totality of the amp (i guess the axe-fx doesn't do this either).


    This is helpful. One note, though: what makes you say that the Axe-FX doesn't capture the "totality of the amp"? My impression is this: the Kemper will take a perfect snapshot of your rig as you profile it (including pickups, mic, settings, etc), whereas the Axe-FX will get more of the overall general amp, including tweakability, tone controls, etc. As such, it may get you 80 to 90% close to an amp...not perfect...but it will allow for tonal adjustments better than the Kemper since it's "locked in time". For me, this may be one of the biggest hangups in deciding which way to go. On the one hand, I'm not sure 80-90% is good/close enough, even with the ability to fine tune the tone from there. OTOH, I'm worried that I'll profile my amps/settings and maybe sell them off (my intention is to keep either the RK or the MOD50...probably not both) and then get a new guitar down the road, and suddenly my profiles on the Kemper don't sound right, and I don't have the amp anymore to profile again with the new guitar.

  • For me the KPA was the winner. I am not a great tweaker by any means, nor do I enjoy it. I like to plug into an amp, twist a few knobs, and play. Either I dig it or I don't. With the KPA - if I don't dig it, it's no big deal. Next profile please. The AXE is much more about editing in my experience. You can get there, but there are menus after menu to wade through and for me it was tedious. Can sum it up in that the KPA is ALL about the profile - there are some great ones, but there are also some not so great ones. I let my ears decide. The AXE to me is more about tweaking. There are some great tweakers (watch Mark Day vids for instance), and some not so great (me). I was never able to tweak my AXE to the tone nirvana I have achieved with some of my favorite profiles. I realize this is simply because I am at best an average tweaker and guys like Andy at TAF and MBritt have golden ears and serious profiling skills. But both units can get you there - it's just what road do you choose to take.


    Thanks...this is pretty much what my fear is with the Axe-FX. I like the idea of tweaking more than the reality. I get excited about doing it...all of the endless possibilities...then I sit down to do it and get bored quickly and think, "I just want to play."


  • Thanks for the unbiased assessment. I posted this same thing both here and on the Fractal forums, and (as expected) most folks are are pro Kemper and there are pro Axe-FX...but still helpful to get a clearer picture of what will be better for me. Noting the weaknesses actually does more to sell me on this product than it turns me away from it.


    The lack of full-on editor is troubling, but (as you noted) hopefully that will be resolved in the near future. Of more difficulty is the idea that some of the effects need to be worked on, especially reverb and delay...the only two effects I use pretty much all the time. What, specifically, is lacking about them?

  • So I think both products have their place, and will suit different people. Having said that, a couple of things from your OP would seem to support your going with the KPA:


    "I’m a simple player. I mostly use a couple of effects at any given time, and tend to rotate between 2-3 basic amp tones (clean, crunch, “searing lead”). I want those tones to be as amazing as possible"
    "Capturing the ranges of sounds from those two amps (which are many) is crucial."


    Yeah, this is great. My two biggest hangups right now with the Kemper are: 1. what happens if down the road I get a new guitar and/or sell off one or more of my amps and need to re-profile but don't have access to the gear? And 2. if the reverbs and delays are not up to snuff (both quality and adjustment options) with the Axe-FX (or any other unit, really), that's going to be a problem for me, since those are my go-to effects.

  • Ha! Now that IS something that I think all people who have used modellers can argue about - accuracy of clean tones versus distorted tones.


    Yeah...I haven't found any modeled clean tones yet that reach the complexity, feel or tonal range/response of the real thing. I'd argue they are farther away from the real thing than most overdriven tones are...at least, in my experience and to my ears.

  • Since you're posting this here, it's not surprising to get such pro-Kemper comments.
    Many above have already stated some very great and valid points in their opinions.
    I actually discovered the Fractal first, I then learned about Kemper.


    I did like Fractal's twin engine processing and they do lead in effects processing as well. IMO
    Fractal's ability to co-ordinate screen pics seemed pretty cool too, but that was an advanced tool beyond my usage.
    Still, some might find that an advantage.


    But all said, it was Kemper's soulful tone which won me over in comparison to Fractal's 'digital" sound. (Again, just my opinion)
    I also believe it's Kemper's sonic profile approach which impressed above all else. That and of course the resulting profiles.


    Lastly, I gotta say the Kemper forum community wins far and above than those I experienced from the Fractal arena.

    Happy Kemper

  • I can see your dilemma but I think you are overcomplicating things. As you stated you have a simple clean, distortion and lead set up...Ax and KPA do that well...as from a tone philosophy, you have to decided if you are ok with a company's interpretation of amp modes, effects and tone or if you can design your own true profiles and work from there. Don't forget KPA and Ax are totally different that way and can't really be compared.


    as for your FX concern, i think you should do some research on that since you don't really know all the tech spec. KPA's FX are industry standard.


    As for profiling and selling the guitar you profiled with. This is the smallest and almost most unimportant point in the signal chain. Your profiling is done without the guitar at first; in the refining process a guitar is used to add to the algorithm more real information. This has nothing to do with the actual guitar but can be achieved with any guitar. As for selling your amps and re-profling them...well....that just life tbh, it'd be the same with or without KPA ;) just the difference is you got the profile of your amp and still can play what you did.


    The KPA is only as good as its user. As my teacher always said Garbage in Garbage out...so you need to learn how to do it well.


    and...the size is not a deal breaker and shouldn't be...2 rack spaces, 3 rack spaces...that is an odd point. On the audio interface side, as a recording tool in a studio, I'd rather use high end AD/DA I/Os with great mic pres than a direct USB thing. If you just play in your bedroom, that's cool but as a professional tool, not necessary.
    OS updates are often and well thought out and routing capabilities are just as good as the Axe but then you tell us what exactly you need as for your signal flow and routing.

    The Editor is cool but you really need it with the Axe. One of the worst GUI and really high learning curve. I played the Axe and one of my friend has it etc...we compare our boutique amps with the Axe or KPA and the KPA always wins...as for the floorboard....well, i like the small footprint since I have a lot of fly dates and it 's super pro and functional. The Axe controller is huge and has no more functionality than the Remote...remember it's just buttons.


    Seems like you already know what you want, you just don't want to admit it to yourself ;) But it's all good, you are still welcome here haha

  • Since you're posting this here, it's not surprising to get such pro-Kemper comments.


    Lastly, I gotta say the Kemper forum community wins far and above than those I experienced from the Fractal arena.


    Yeah, the pro-Kemper comments here, nor the pro-Axe comments there, are not surprising (I fully expected it), nor are they problematic (I want to hear what people love about their choice/device).


    Re: the community, I've found helpful folks on both sides, though their constant harping on my complaints about shipping costs is annoying. $80 shipping for two items totalling 20lbs is just nuts, no matter how many times they say, "It's worth it. Just get over it." No thanks. But otherwise...at least so far...both communities have been helpful.

    Edited once, last by mbrown3 ().

  • As for profiling and selling the guitar you profiled with. This is the smallest and almost most unimportant point in the signal chain. Your profiling is done without the guitar at first; in the refining process a guitar is used to add to the algorithm more real information. This has nothing to do with the actual guitar but can be achieved with any guitar. As for selling your amps and re-profling them...well....that just life tbh, it'd be the same with or without KPA ;) just the difference is you got the profile of your amp and still can play what you did.


    This is helpful...thanks for clarifying. However, my issue isn't fear over selling a guitar. It's over selling an amp. For example, my main guitar is an Anderson Atom. That's not (ever) going anywhere. I also have a Melancon strat. They sound drastically different through both of my "main" rigs. No problem...I can create profiles using each guitar for each of the amp settings. But say then I sell the MOD50, for example...then later I get a new guitar, or I change pickups, or...whatever. Even if the guitar is the smallest part of the signal chain, I still don't have the amp anymore, in order to re-profile it with whatever new settings. The easy answer is, "just keep your amps" - but I'm trying to cut down on space used as well as to save my back for live.


    Still, your point is well taken and it does help to set my mind at ease a bit.


    and...the size is not a deal breaker and shouldn't be...2 rack spaces, 3 rack spaces...that is an odd point.


    Well, I have limited rack space, so it's an issue if I don't want to buy another rack unit, which I don't.


    The Editor is cool but you really need it with the Axe. One of the worst GUI and really high learning curve.


    UI doesn't really bother me either way. I would lean much more heavily toward the Kemper just on principle (simpler is better when it comes to tweaking, IMO), but I don't mind learning a new system if it gets me what I want. Still, point to Kemper that it seems quicker/easier to adjust live.


    Seems like you already know what you want, you just don't want to admit it to yourself ;) But it's all good, you are still welcome here haha


    Not really (truly). As I noted, I'm leaning toward the Kemper, but I really want to make the best choice (for me). This is helping narrow down my thinking, but I don't have a clear cut decision coming into it.


    Thanks!

  • mbrown3, the kemper is not locked in time after profiling, it's very flexible and you can make a lot of adjustments, eq's, tube sag, cab, pick attack, definition and more. Just like if you try someones amp rig, you often adjust things to fit your ears and guitar pickups, do the same on the kemper. Change a little or adjust the profile to something completely different, it's very easy.


    I agree with what Ingolf wrote earlier.
    "I was using the term 'snapshot' before I was a Kemper user. I didn't know better.
    Now I know it's a term that's not remotely accurate to what the Kemper can do.
    Think of a profile as a completely vivid and organic setting that you get of your amp at its sweetest spot, that follows your playing, interacts with you, changes with your changes in playing and in addition to that is tweakable beyond what is possible with the original amp."


    Learn about the kemper by watching all tutorial videos showing how to profile amps in this link to get a hang of it.
    http://www.wikpa.org/Profiling_Tutorials#Videos


    Also many good info videos in this list of producers and bands using the kemper.
    http://www.wikpa.org/Various_stuff


    And as written previously, tone matching (= eq match) is not at all the same thing as profiling. Some misinformed users say on the fractal forum. The differences and history are explained here
    http://www.kemper-amps.com/for…?postID=176676#post176676

  • i don't understand your fear of selling your amps....what would you do if there was no Axe or KPA...use your POD? or even pre POD, you just had to deal. tbh, i'd never sell my tube amps because I think the KPA will just collect its essence and then I can do away with them....IMHO it's the wrong thinking. So, what are you afraid of really? The argument you made in regards to "selling amps" doesn't work.


    if you decide for the KPA, learn how to really use it and establish your own profiles keeping in mind your mic choice, mic pres, mic postions, cabs etc....yes, it's a bit more complicated but you get great and better results. It all depends on you. Good Luck! :)

  • Quote

    However, my issue isn't fear over selling a guitar. It's over selling an amp.


    Either way, I think it's kind of a moot point, or a point leaning slightly in favor of the Kemper. The Axe doesn't offer profiling per se, so you'd never have had the option to profile and sell your amps in the first place. The Axe does have tone matching, but assuming you nailed the sound of your amp(s) for the channels/voicings/etc that matter to you now, you'd still have the same problem if you decided you wanted to tone match differently after selling. And I don't think that tone matching on the Axe would make further tweaking any more authentic than on the Kemper. The only scenario where an amp might behave true to the original across all operating parameters are for the amp models as designed/ programmed by Fractal, and even here that is a matter of their discretion/ preference. Hmm... I wonder whether I'm even making sense at this point. ?( Bottom line, if you think you might want to sell one of these amps eventually, to ease the cost of the KPA or whatever, just make A LOT of profiles of that amp at a lot of different settings, and don't lose them. (This is assuming you don't find profiles on Rig Exchange that you like better than your own anyway.)


    As for shortcomings in KPA effects, the lack of a spring reverb, and inflexible placement of the delay block, are common complaints. But it's pretty likely these will be addressed in firmware sooner or later. I might open a can of worms saying so, but I'm also not really in love with the distortion/overdrive effects in the KPA. Part of this might be down to the amp profiles I'm pairing them with. It doesn't matter much to me since I can generally find an amp that offers the right amount/flavor of gain without a dirt pedal.

  • Here's what I am Soooo glad I avoided with the Ax: http://www.thegearpage.net/boa…hp?p=19500972&postcount=5


    Notice that he started at 8am and went to 9pm after applying an update!!


    I had this with all of the Line 6 floor boards I used....it got to the point where I didn't even look forward to, or want to apply the latest firmware changes that were going to make it sound "more realer".


    I have arrived at a usable group of rigs/patches, with effects, that I can depend on for the music I play. I know how they work live, in the mix, and I don't want to have to mess around with them unnecessarily.


    Every AX update is billed as *The One* - until the next *one*


    I was up in the air between the two, just as you are, and this single issue made up my mind. I'm so glad for my choice.


    Good luck with your choice, whatever it is.

  • i don't understand your fear of selling your amps....what would you do if there was no Axe or KPA...use your POD? or even pre POD, you just had to deal. tbh, i'd never sell my tube amps because I think the KPA will just collect its essence and then I can do away with them....IMHO it's the wrong thinking. So, what are you afraid of really? The argument you made in regards to "selling amps" doesn't work.


    if you decide for the KPA, learn how to really use it and establish your own profiles keeping in mind your mic choice, mic pres, mic postions, cabs etc....yes, it's a bit more complicated but you get great and better results. It all depends on you. Good Luck! :)


    Not sure what you're saying. I'm not afraid to sell an amp...I want to sell my amps. I'm trying to pare down. My fear is over having profiled it and then later not having the amp to be able to re-profile it. I could end up keeping all of my amps, but I'm trying to get away from that.


  • Either way, I think it's kind of a moot point, or a point leaning slightly in favor of the Kemper. The Axe doesn't offer profiling per se, so you'd never have had the option to profile and sell your amps in the first place. The Axe does have tone matching, but assuming you nailed the sound of your amp(s) for the channels/voicings/etc that matter to you now, you'd still have the same problem if you decided you wanted to tone match differently after selling. And I don't think that tone matching on the Axe would make further tweaking any more authentic than on the Kemper. The only scenario where an amp might behave true to the original across all operating parameters are for the amp models as designed/ programmed by Fractal, and even here that is a matter of their discretion/ preference. Hmm... I wonder whether I'm even making sense at this point. ?( Bottom line, if you think you might want to sell one of these amps eventually, to ease the cost of the KPA or whatever, just make A LOT of profiles of that amp at a lot of different settings, and don't lose them. (This is assuming you don't find profiles on Rig Exchange that you like better than your own anyway.)


    But the difference on the Axe, as I understand it, is that it gets close to the sound of an amp, but with the full range of control options for that amp, so that you can tweak it to right where you want it...whereas the Kemper takes a snapshot. So in the Axe's case, it doesn't matter if I have the amp or not, since it's getting to a close approximation anyway. The Kemper, it matters if I have the amp because it's taking an exact snapshot, settings and all...and if I want to change those settings (other than just minor tweaks), I'd need to re-profile.


  • Thanks...I'm not sure I see that post as the negative that you do. I don't mind tweaking if it gets me where I want to go. I don't mind putting the time in either. Granted, I'd rather have it sound awesome right out of the box, but the end result is what I care about. And generally speaking, I think frequent updates are a good thing. It means they are always improving (hopefully) the product. Isn't that true of everything, though? They put out new cars every year because they have new technology, improved features, better reliability. Every once in a while there's a mis-step and they put out a lemon, but then they fix it and get back to the path of progress.