Kemper KPA vs. Axe-FX II (Yes, another one...please read!)

Quote from Guitartone

Listen to the "Bad Cat, "AC 30", "The Chief" soundclips.

Thanks...those are some great clips. Some of the clean tones I've found have a good amount of effects on them, which IMO makes it harder to hear the real clean tone coming through. So I think I've heard some of your clips before, and while they sound great, there are just a small percentage that doesn't have some effects on them. Don't get me wrong...clips with effects sound better, and more realistic for musical purposes, but can often mask the "pure" tone behind them. Still, I can get a pretty good idea from them, and they sound great. Thank you!

Quote from OneEng1

Not sure I agree with your methods of assessment here. I did previously agree with you that MY personal experience was that the Kemper has great natural tone that captures that of the real tube amps that are profiled (the definition of "good tone" in my book). I agreed that I only lightly use efx and therefore it was very possible that the efx on Kemper are not as good as those on Axe II (although they are as good as most anything I have used in the past FYI).

It seems inconstant for you to now say that while the tones recorded sound very good to your ear, that it masks the "pure tone".

I have read literally thousands of posts comparing the Kemper and Axe/Axe II. I don't recall a single entry claiming that Kemper does not excel in capturing the "pure tone" of an amp better than the Fractal offerings.

This kind of discussion tactic is refereed to as "moving the goal post".

In addition to this twist in logic, I also would like to point out that any "pure tone" you would hear in a recorded clip would be MUCH more effected by the guitar, guitar settings, and eq used on that particular clip...... vs any meaningful information about how effective the clean tones the rig in the Kemper are.

Finally, the reason that most clips on both amps are distorted tones is because these are the tones that are MOST effected by the profiler/modeler. Getting authentic sounding guitar distortion is very difficult. Getting good clean sounds with some efx can be done fairly well with my $100.00 Line 6 guitar port.

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I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not making a statement about KPA vs. Axe, nor of the KPA's ability to capture an amp's "pure tones". I'm simply saying that it's often hard to hear the "pure tone" (meaning more like "simple," not "accurate" or "good" tone) because effects can mask what it it sounds like. That is, by "pure", I mean "unaffected by effects". For example, if you have a basic, unaffected tone and then add a flanger with extreme settings (as an extreme example), it becomes really hard to tell what the unaffected tone sounds like...it's masked by the effect.

Quote from viabcroce

OTOH, I'd disagree that the distorted tones are the hardest to reproduce. I find that I was able to get decent distorted tones from even cheap devices, but realistic (with no "piezo" effect) clean tones are reserved to the best ones IMO.

I guess it's a matter of the tones one love most, "the other ones" are always acceptable

TOTALLY agree with this (and I think I said as much earlier in the thread). Yes, distorted tones are more complex, but a tube amp's clean tones have so much nuance and tonal subtlety that is lost/missing in many attempts to recreate them.

OK, Fractal forumite ethomas and I got together last evening to A/B the two units. ethomas is a good guy and I’m very grateful for his generosity of time and his willingness to come help me check out the two units. We did, indeed, have some really cool guitars to play with. It was fun.

I fully expect to get flamed by both camps, but I’ll start with the bottom line and then unpack the thoughts a little bit. Here’s the nutshell: both units sound incredible. Truly. They both sound and (just as importantly) feel like a legit tube amp. I don’t want to speak for ethomas but I think we both agreed that either unit would be very usable and that either of us would be happy with either one. That’s all. No qualifications. They both sound/feel fantastic. Note that both were on the latest firmware...3.0 for KPA and 18 beta for Axe-Fx, and both were played through an Atomic CLR Neo Wedge (great FRFR, incidentally).

Keep in mind that the last time I played through anything digital, solid state, or modeling-related was back in the Digitech RP series days. Those things sounded like crap and made everything sound overly digital. We’ve come a long way from those days and I could honestly use either of these units and be content.

Here are some more specific thoughts:
Tone - both sounded good. Really good. They both had some tones that were much better than others, and again this will be affected by the individual player, guitar, and so forth. For all of the talk by some of the Axe being hard to dial in (because of too many options), it really wasn’t hard to dial in a usable tone on either device. And both devices had some default profiles/models that just didn’t sound that good. I’m not so much concerned with how accurate to the original amp the sounds are (unless I’m trying to capture my own amps, in which case I’m VERY concerned with that); I’m more interested in whether they sound good and are usable tones for me. Both definitely had that in spades.

Feel - both feel really good, respond well to finger dynamics, how hard you pick, etc. Both respond well to volume and tone knob adjustments. I’d give a very slight edge for “feel” to the KPA, but it’s almost imperceptible. They both feel great. No hesitations about this at all (this was one of my worries going in).

Usability - both are really easy to use. If you’re going into really deep parameters and messing around with them, then probably either device could get tedious or complex (esp. the Axe because it has more options). But just pulling up profiles/presets/whatever is easy on both. I’m far less concerned about this than many people seem to be, because I’ll get accustomed to whatever I end up with.

Effects - this is the only place, IMO, where there is a clear win for either unit (unless you’re comparing just a flat number of features). The Axe’s effects sound more natural, there are far more of them, and there are a lot more options to configure them. I don’t use a ton of effects, so this isn’t necessarily as big of a deal for me as it might be for others, but even the two effects that I almost always use (delay and reverb), the Axe wins hands down. The biggest place where this was noticeable was in the decay of the delays and reverbs on the Kemper...they sounded very digital and non-natural - not drastically so, but noticeable. The Axe’s were really nice. I don’t think the Kemper’s effects sound bad; they are very usable. But when you compare them, they just don’t stand up to the Axe’s. Also the routing options in the Axe-Fx DO make a difference. Sometimes I want the delay early in the chain, sometimes at the end, etc.

Conclusion - So, what’s my choice? I’m actually still not 100% sure. That’s not a cop-out; both units are awesome and could work for me. I think given the parity between most facets of the units, the one thing that stands out is the effects on the Axe. For that reason alone, I’d probably choose the Axe platform over the KPA. I could certainly use the KPA and then just use another effects unit, but I’m trying to eliminate as much gear as possible. All things considered, my ideal solution would actually be something like the AX8. If that was coming any time soon, it would make the decision pretty easy, and it also combines the foot controller with the modeling and effects. A couple of trade-offs, but for me they would be easily worth it. So, at this point unless I hear that the AX8 won’t be out for two years or something, I’ll probably wait for that to release. If it is going to be a while before it comes out, then I’ll probably go with the Axe-Fx, simply based on the effects capabilities.

For me, this is not a win-lose situation; we live in a great time when there are fantastic devices like these that make the choice between them really difficult and really just come down to what works better for each person, based more on minor usage factors than any major or overwhelmingly lopsided difference in quality, etc.

Quote from meambobbo

it was very nice of ethomas to do that, and i'd probably go the same way if I were in your shoes. i came from the opposite direction - wanting great high-gain tones with not much priority on any effects.

as for the delays, how were you dialing them in on the KPA - were you messing with the tone controls? did you get a chance to try out my presets?

I did, and your presets made a difference. And on their own, the KPA's effects sounded good. The biggest difference I noted was when compared side by side, it was really no contest. As I said, the KPA's weren't bad; very usable. But they aren't on the same level as the Axe's. I also thought the KPA had a slight edge on some of the clean patches (I didn't find anything in the Axe to rival Till's Recto Clean 2, for example), but I didn't include it in my notes because that could just be my inability to dial things in properly, or that I didn't have time to scroll through hundreds of presets to find a truly comparable one.

Quote from TheLightspeeder

Just what I had said in the first few posts...you already had set your mind on the Axe.

Its great you go through this lengthy process of figuring out what product works out for you. It's just interesting to see how you already had your mind set to a particular choice but needed all of us and the good people at FAS to help you figure things out. All your comparing and contrasting was really odd. Anyeays, congrats on your choice and now go and play that guitar ...

Except...not.

I don't get it. Folks on FAS said I already had my mind made up for a kemper. Folks in kemper forum said I already had my mind made up for the axe. It doesn't matter that I actually didn't have my mind made up; people have to make assumptions and then find all kinds of reasons to justify why they were right. It's exhausting.