Kemper KPA vs. Axe-FX II (Yes, another one...please read!)

One more bit of info from me, hehe.

I don't know your musical taste or preferences. But I do know mine. I absolutely LOVE dynamics, can't live without dynamic playing. And it has completely blown me away how sensitive the Profiler (combined with the right profiles) is to playing dynamics, volume and tone knob on the guitar. In some cases I would even dare to say that the profile is even more dynamic than the original amp.

When you ever get a chance to try a Profiler, I really wish you'll experience this FEEL, it's unbelievable and no words in forums or reviews will manage to convince you unless you've felt it in your own fingers and ears. A Morgan AC20 or a 1968 Matamp with quite some Gain when profiled can be a bad beast or smooth as butter under your fingers ... without any tweaks. And these were just 2 examples of MY favourites ... there's many more waiting in the huge pile of profiles available.

I mentioned it before, I have no first hand experience with the Axe FX. If it can react as sensitive and dynamic as the Profiler, great. But what I think can tell for sure ... it can't be more dynamic. Impossible.

Quote from TheLightspeeder

I see what you are saying viabcroce. if you think about it tho, it makes no sense.

Oh, I was just trying to explain what I got from the OP's post, since I had the impression you guys were not... tuned to each other

Quote from mbrown3

Still, in the same way I won't hold Cliff's past actions against him if he's put that behind him (or until I experience it), I won't hold the whole community there responsible for the actions of a couple of morons.

Fair enough
I'll use an hyperbole to clarify my feeling: if a person assaults and batteries you today, will they become a better person the following week just because they do not do it again?
Just to clarify, I'm not trying to influence what you think about the man. Mine was an attempt to explain why we say that people here look better to us
Also, if you found on this board someone hinting at the fact that you work for fARctal and are trying to stir the pot etc, I'd be the first to tackle them. When this happens on the Fractal forum, very rarely someone raises to defend your freedom of speak. Certainly no-one held my part at the time

Quote from mbrown3

The Kemper takes a snapshot of the actual sound coming from the amp, including settings, guitar, pickups being used, etc

No, as it has been already clarified above, the guitar has no part in the profiling process.

Quote from drew_fx

when you tweak the EQ.... it is very amp like, and the differences between it and the real amp are minuscule.

Well, I'm not sure I'd agree on this. The tone controls are independent from each other, while on most amps they interact. This can make a good difference in terms of response. But... see below

Quote from mbrown3

the profiles don't exactly sound right once you start changing them from the profile.

This is not correct: the profile doesn't sound like the original amp would if the same heavy tweaking is applied.This is very different from "not sounding right": the Profiler always sounds right. If anything, you've got a lot of more control power than with a real amp. The gain knob on the Profiler offers 80 dB. You can even change the pick attack or the way tubes react to the signal... of course you can create bad sounds on the Profiler!

Quote from mbrown3

Yep, that's the plan. The Kemper will arrive next week and I'll try it out. The Axe...will depend on whenever they run a free shipping promo, and I'll try that too. Still, I like hearing info from users. This (here and at the FA forum) has actually been very helpful.

Cool! Hope you will be happy with the Kemper - and if not, hope you'll be happy with the axe Good luck on your tone quest

In my experience the following is true.

The Kemper profile sounds like the profiled amp with all the knobs in 1 certain position. Thats the snapshot concept refereed to here very often. Michael Britt creates some amazing ones!

The Axe FX treats the sounds like the circuits in the original amp. Therefore its not a snapshot of an amp with the dials in a particular setting. Its more like having the real amps ability to have a variety of knob settings and generate the appropriate respective tones .

Apples and oranges. Both are great. Talking wont resolve it. Playing might ; ) Good luck!!!

Lasvideo, I am sorry but you are wrong. You are misunderstanding the meaning of a snapshot in this context. Yes, the KPA takes a snapshot and then translates all values to its controls and sets it up just like the amp you had profiled. From there you can change your settings on the KPA just like you'd do in your original amp, behaving exactly the same way... The difference to the Axe-FX is that these values are established by your own doing and not by the company.

The argument that it's only a snapshot doesn't hold up as explained in a previous post.
Every single guitar we hear on every album has been tweaked and eq'd with gear that has nothing to do with the real amp used.
And the result is fantastic. We don't go, -that amp sound is tweaked with eq in the studio that has nothing to do with the real amp and therefore its not as real.

Nobody will pass a blindtest listening to 20 profiles, then saying what profiles are untouched original, what are a little tweaked and what profiles are almost changed into a completely different sound. They will all sound good, just like we are used to hearing tweaked guitars on albums. Also every tone pot on amps vary 15-25% so all amps are different anyway.
It's very easy to adjust a profile sound with the kemper to taste, a little or a lot. Many tonal options are available.

I prefer the authenticity of the kemper. I have compared the Axe fx 2 with several amps it's supposed to model, but the tone knobs, gain etc don't react just like the original amps that are not accurately modeled to the source amp I have to begin with. Much of this is marketing, just like the new fractal Axe fx ultra-res IR, that is proven to be false marketing. Hard evidence posted by speaker guru Jay Mitchell shows that the new fractal ultra-res IR have less high freq content and limited bandwidth and unlike the marketing claims is in fact not at all higher resolution than normal available IR's.

I'm all about real amp authenticity from the source so I use the kemper for amps and effects.
The Axe fx 2 is not bad but it doesn't have profiling technology, it uses traditional modeling and static cab IR's that is missing the real interaction that occurs when playing the amp and the cab.
And just like Steve Vai I only use the Axe fx 2 for a few effects, not amps.
I like to keep it simple, authentic and good. More playing and less tweaking is what I prefer.

I was just talking about the process of getting to the profiles. Of course in a recording process you run mics, mic pres, comp, gate, EQ etc...but that wasn't the point bin this discussion as the Axe-FX or any other amp or modeler would be treated the same way when used in a recording.

mbrown, here's my thoughts. first off, i never owned an axe fx.

As far as the Delay/Reverb on the KPA...the Delay is very good. The only problem is that there currently are not a lot of time options when it comes to stereo delays. You can't do a true ping pong delay, for instance. If you want to manually select a delay time, then you are limited to the L/R ratios of (1:4, 2:4, 3:4, or 4:4) - you cannot manually select the delay time of each side. There is a delay effect that allows you to define left and right each in terms of the beat (in terms of increments of 1/16 of a beat), but you have no option to manually specify the time - it must align to tempo. Which means you can't use it to get very short delays, as you can't set the tempo very high. Of course my reason to want these things is a bit niche compared to most, but I am fairly sure this is a high priority for the KPA team to upgrade. The delays can be modulated, although you don't have full control over the modulation - it's just one parameter, no control over rate or depth. It's good enough IMO.

The reverbs on the KPA are good, not great. One of the biggest complaints is the lack of spring reverb. There is a reverb effect called "Matchbox" that's supposed to be like a spring reverb, but it's not up to snuff. There's an "Ambience" reverb that's kind of cave-like and seems to have some modulation going on. On some tones it's ok. The Hall is my favorite, and the large and small rooms are also good.

The best part about the delay and reverb is that they are interconnected through a single parameter that determines at what proportions the reverb affects the dry signal and the delay trails. To do this with simply routing and mixers gets real nasty. The KPA makes it very simple and very powerful.

I've tried to make some real lush reverb tones by using that parameter - using very short delay times feeding a fully wet reverb that is only processing the delay trails. So you can get shimmery sounds or make the delay trails brighten over time which makes for a bloomy reverb. or you can modulate the delay into the reverb to add lushness. many of those i've shared my presets with have said they are leaving the Strymon Big Sky at home for gigs now, so I think they are quite good.

The problem with this method is that you no longer can use the delay for ... well, traditional delay. A frequent request is a delay effect that can be assigned to the free blocks rather than just the delay block. if that is fulfilled (I'll place a heavy wager it is), then you'd regain delay in addition to these lush reverb options.

Here's a sample of what these can sound like. I apologize the clip is so boring and drawn out - just jump around and you'll get some idea of what the KPA can do in this respect.

Now, my main concern before buying one was whether the profiles could be tweaked like a real amp, or they'd only sound like a real amp until you started tweaking. I don't own any real amps anymore, and was previously using a Pod HD, which I had to tweak forever to get a good tone, and then keep tweaking. I wasn't afraid of tweaking. I just didn't want to be too locked down when using other people's profiles.

I can assure you that the profiles (both amp and cab) are highly tweakable. I'm sure the Axe is more tweakable and probably more authentic as you tweak. But it's also much easier to get a crazy, crappy tone on the Axe. The Kemper is pretty dummy-proof. You can pre-EQ or boost the profiles, re-EQ them, adjust some of the advanced parameters to add sag or harden/soften the distortion...there's really nothing you can't do. the profile responds like an amp - rolling down volume cleans up the tone as the amp would or would not. the profiling processes test tones use a variety of dynamic levels to capture the amp's sound at various input signal strengths.

I would profile your amps at about a dozen settings each, preferably with different mics and positions in addition to different gain levels. That should be quite sufficient. I don't think you need to vary the EQ a whole lot - you can do that on the KPA.

Also, the KPA separates the profile into amp and cab blocks, which can be mixed and matched. So you could find a nice cab from one of the thousands of rigs on the Rig Exchange and apply it to your amp profile, and boom - you've got a new sound that might fit better for a new guitar.

Honestly, I think your main concern here should be what you need out of delay and reverb and whether doing some crazy stuff like I did works for you. But it's also not like these are things Kemper will never address, if I had to guess Kemper's plans. I think you'd be happy with the Kemper, probably moreso than the Axe, but I think either way you go you will be content.

Quote from mbrown3

Ah...thanks. That's good to know. Still, other users (even ones that love the KPA) have said that once you start tweaking (outside of minor adjustments) it stops sounding completely accurate, so that's where most of my concern stems from.

You could get a used AxeFX - if you resold it, you wouldn't lose any money

The Kemper can profile an amp and sound just like it, but the parameters do not closely tweak like the amp. It can't know this and is close within a small range but can quickly leave that range and become it's own sound.

The Fractal though component modeling can recreate a closer approximation to the actual amp's response, but where it misses is it can only respond accurately is to the particular model it was chosen to represent. Since even one model changes over time with changed components, layouts, woods, and speaker impedance load the only way to get it close to YOUR actual amp is tweaking and some have the talent to ring it in close, most do not, sometimes it can't do it.

While there are some amps the Kemper can't profile correctly by their admission, most can be, and it can therefore ring in your tone true to the settings you choose.

The difference is, it can take a Fractal pro hours to ring in a preset to sound like your actual amp on a setting, the Kemper can do it in 20 seconds.

I think the factors helping Kemper is the easy interface and the quick ability to ring in individual tones. Since those sharing their tones hit the sweet spots, others can enjoy this.

You don't see the same kind of large database sharing with the Fractal community, which is something I'm surprised at. There are some tone guru's like fremen who do an amazing job, do it for free, and keep up with firmwares.

The Fractal took a while to get to the point where it sounds authentically good enough that people have less of a problem with it. The Kemper was there year one. The Fractal has some better Delays and Reverbs, but the Kemper's delays and reverbs are definitely professional. I know there are a lot of differences in what people prefer in effects. I like Eventide delays and reverbs and Fractal can accomplish this, whereas Kemper takes a different direction. But since effects are tertiary to my needs, this area doesn't effect my decision. As Ingolf put it, I think of Fractal as second best in raw amp tones and Kemper as second best in pedal effects. Both units have effects the other doesn't have. The Kemper has an effect never done before in guitar pedals. So Kemper is at least on the forefront of digital pedal technology.

The bottom line is, there is no right or wrong in what you choose if it works for you, so a lot of this is a personal decision. I've always tended towards technology that is open-ended. Namely giving users the ability to control and share.

Why is the Fractal Exchange so low in count on offerings? I'd think users would have a lot of great presets to share, no?

BTW, fremen does keep up with the latest Fractal firmware changes and shares his presets with anyone and they are great.

Also, the KPA can profile other modelers which is not always a perfect match (due to differing effect algorithms) but a very cool ability.

The feel is what sold me on it.

Quote from db9091

The difference is, it can take a Fractal pro hours to ring in a preset to sound like your actual amp on a setting, the Kemper can do it in 20 seconds.

This is a patently incorrect statement, most often made by folks who dont currently own the Axe FX system. I can scroll thru (or load up thru software) a patch that is exactly the tone I am looking for. In exactly the same manner and process I can do with the Kemper profiles. With no adjustment necessary. Tweeking might have been an issue in the past, but not for most with current FW. The Axe FX currently exhibits the same authenticity and simplicity that Kemper is known for.

Do you currently own and use FW 17.04 or FW 18 beta? If not...case and point. If so, what do you find so difficult in finding a tone you like from the vast libraries available from Yek and other skilled users?

Here is an example of FW9 in skilled hands.

Just something to use as an OLDER point of comparison. Like I said, I will keep and use both because they both ROCK!

@mbrown3 actually your observation is not correct. My statement has been backed up by many posters here as well as in the manual. Please re-read the exact workings of the profile making. Again, I am just giving you my observation and experience from working with the KPA a lot in the studio as well as clinics I conduct for Kempet here in the US at Guitar Center. I know you are just compiling information but tbh at this point the dog is chasing its tail to stay with your metaphor;)

It was Cliff who said that his modeling a particular amp via schematics fell short of being able to account for the actual layout of the components and interference between their layouts. And differneces in wood, ohms, etc make for a lot of differences between instances of the same model. If you've played them, you know the differences between boards, hand wired, different caps over time, etc.

The Kemper can grab this tone in seconds. I highly doubt it can be tweaked with the same authenticity within 20 seconds. In fact, reading the board and the troubles people have ringing in the models to sound like THEIR particular model are case in points.

So if the owner of Fractal and users say so, I don't have to defend the point. I was just stating that obvious difference. I challenge a YouTube to be made by anyone who thinks they can ring in a Fractal in the same time it takes to profile a Kemper on an individual amp not modeled by the Fractal. Or even one that is, but a different version of that model.

Whats up with your posts???

Thanks for fixing that up. It was hard to read the other way. : )

OP I think you have a lot of food for thought that will go out the window when you get to play thru one of these amazing devices. ENJOY!

As you can see from my posts, I am a very happy Kemper owner and user.

When I got mine, I tried both.

Both were/are astounding ..... they are different and each do their own thing their own way but they each do it brilliantly ........ end of debate.

If after a bit of time you cant get amazing sounds out of either of these units, its not the unit !!!!!

Honeslty and frankly, either one would have been great for me.

The onlyreason I went with the Kemper was that to my ears the Kemper sounded a bit less "hifi" and a bit more "raw" ..... that's it !!!

And I know AxeFX II colleagues of mine who think my Kemper sounds too "hifi" and too "processed" to their ears .......:)

My only caveat to the above is that if EFX are a really big part of your tone / sounds / sonic landscape and playing etc..... then I'd probably suggest going the AxeFX II

You absolutely will not wrong with either - only your ears can tell you the answer - there is not a "better" in this comparison.

Ben