Looper is working through MIDI, KPA Team made it available in 3.0.2 Public Beta:)(UPDATED 26.03.2015)

    I can see all sides to this one really.


    I can understand the opinion that it seems a bit dishonest to state that you must buy the remote to get the looper. Then it gets found, albeit not fully implemented, for free and able to be used with hardware that folks already have so the company was not telling the whole truth about it being only usable via the official hardware. In the future, the company can either embrace the fact that this has been found and develop it or they can decide to disable the feature in a future software update if they so wish..... Either course of action has consequences and if they remove it some folks will probably go and find pitchforks and torches :) But I have an alternative view.


    There are many examples out there in the world when a hardware device (such as a computer) comes pre-loaded with a particular program to make it do 'ABC'. If you want to gain access to ABC, you give the software writer some money and they unlock the feature. The feature was there all along, it's just that you didn't have access until you paid. There are VST plugins that do this.... you have the full program installed already but it will play white noise every 30 seconds unless you pay the manufacturer to unblock it. Do we feel entitled to the whole program because it's already there?


    The alternative to giving the company and money is to hack the program.


    Now before anyone gets upset at the comparison between piracy and finding MIDI control messages........ I know there is a big, big technical difference between hacking a program and discovering the MIDI commands that make the looper work. As to an ethical difference? That's where I'm less clear. It's obvious that the company intent here was to make this a feature that you paid for via buying a piece of hardware. Does the fact that they didn't lock the door and left the silver on display make it right to walk in and believe the silver is yours?


    Another example, Kemper related. Pretty much everyone here would condemn the sharing of commercial profiles. It's easy to do it because there is no protection and some people disagree with the concept of 'paid for' profiles at all - after all, it's your Kemper and you can do what you like with it...... But my take on this is that commercial makers give the profiles value the moment they decide to charge for them..... If a person creates something and decides to give it a monetary value, everyone can then decide to either pay what is asked or talk to the person about it. Or they can just take it.


    So, whilst the looper functionality is in the Profiler and accessible via MIDI (albeit not fully), it's also clear that the company intent was to charge for it. I admire the historical community spirit of the Kemper in terms of finding little bits that make it better for everyone and I certainly admire the technical ability of the guys who know MIDI here but I have to wonder if this has crossed the line of what is right and what is wrong? I think it has..... Does anyone here think that the inventor of the whole system is going to be pleased that this has been found? Ultimately he has a company to run and, whilst it's true that not many people will buy the remote 'just for the looper', it's clear that the looper is a desirable feature. We've all been asking for one for quite some time in feature request threads and this thread is all about people putting in time and effort to get the looper going via MIDI. So it has value because people want it and it will be a feature that people consider in their free choice to buy a remote or not. Knocking that 'exclusive feature' may well lose them money. You could argue that it's money they are not entitled to on the grounds that they've not nailed it down but, entitled or not, they've made a product with an 'exclusive looper' and their intent was clear.


    I know the company has a long history of free upgrades. In an ideal world for us out here this would have been free. In the world we live in, the development of the hardware has gone this way and the maker has made a commercial decision to tie full functionality to another piece of hardware. You could argue that Kemper has done this to make more money or you could argue that they've done it because implementing the feature via MIDI was clunky. Either could be true but ultimately it is the choice of the company to go this way and as such the looper has been given a value which the company expect to be paid for.


    Before anyone asks, yes I've ordered the remote. For the record, my opinions expressed above are nothing to do with 'someone getting the looper for free when I've gone and paid for it' - I really do not care what anyone else has or does not have vs what I have here. My interest is purely in the company making plenty of profit out of the whole Kemper brand so as they continue to give INTENDED free upgrades that we have all come to know, love and expect. In this regard, I'm not keen on CK spending time on a 'project' to get the looper working over MIDI when he could instead be working on intentional free upgrades in the system to add other functions in the feature request thread.


    Peace etc. Not getting at anyone here - just sharing thoughts :)

    Quote from Peto


    I am sorry for misleading information. But we can only guess about KPA's internals.
    So it has to be FreeRTOS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeRTOS
    This time I have to be right. Right? :huh:

    Quote from Peto


    I am sorry for misleading information. But we can only guess about KPA's internals.
    So it has to be FreeRTOS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeRTOS
    This time I have to be right. Right? :huh:


    It also should be : eCos, embOS, LynxOS, µC/OS-III, Nucleus OS, Neutrino, OSE, QNX, ThreadX, Windows CE, vxWorks. Or one out of the 100 less known ;)

    Quote from Gary_W

    So, whilst the looper functionality is in the Profiler and accessible via MIDI (albeit not fully), it's also clear that the company intent was to charge for it. I admire the historical community spirit of the Kemper in terms of finding little bits that make it better for everyone and I certainly admire the technical ability of the guys who know MIDI here but I have to wonder if this has crossed the line of what is right and what is wrong? I think it has....


    I think it hasn't. The Kemper is controlled by Midi Hardware and in my opinion, users have every right to send all the Midi messages, they want to the kemper. I think, the company may regret, that they haven't blocked it in earlier public firmware versions.
    Nevertheless, in my opinion, the company has every right to block it in current or future release versions, as they have never advertised this feature working without the remote.

    Quote from MtotheEikel


    I think it hasn't. The Kemper is controlled by Midi Hardware and in my opinion, users have every right to send all the Midi messages, they want to the kemper. I think, the company may regret, that they haven't blocked it in earlier public firmware versions.
    Nevertheless, in my opinion, the company has every right to block it in current or future release versions, as they have never advertised this feature working without the remote.


    Of course they have the right to block it.
    Nevertheless the free update policy and the obligation to buy another device in order to let a "free" function work are not compatible, IMHO.

    Quote from Gary_W

    I can understand the opinion that it seems a bit dishonest to state that you must buy the remote to get the looper. Then it gets found, albeit not fully implemented, for free and able to be used with hardware that folks already have so the company was not telling the whole truth about it being only usable via the official hardware. In the future, the company can either embrace the fact that this has been found and develop it or they can decide to disable the feature in a future software update if they so wish..... Either course of action has consequences and if they remove it some folks will probably go and find pitchforks and torches But I have an alternative view.


    I don't think it was ever stated as such - I haven't seen it anyway. What I have seen is that they decided to implement the looper functionality in the looper rather than midi in order not hinder the ease of use.


    I don't think Kemper has a stated policy that all future features will be free updates either. I haven't seen it anyway. All the firmware UPDATES have been free thus far.

    Quote from Michael_dk

    I don't think it was ever stated as such - I haven't seen it anyway. What I have seen is that they decided to implement the looper functionality in the looper rather than midi in order not hinder the ease of use.


    from: http://www.kemper-amps.com/remote
    THE LOOPER
    There is something magic about loopers. Doesn’t matter if you use them to create layered worlds of sound or to rehearse the complex middle-8 of your last composition.
    With a single click on a button, Remote turns into a fully fledged Looper control station. Loops can be recorded, overdubbed and deleted by using the buttons on the board. You can reverse, halftime and undo takes. The maximum duration of a loop is thirty seconds. The Looper is exclusively available to Remote users.



    Quote from Michael_dk

    I don't think Kemper has a stated policy that all future features will be free updates either. I haven't seen it anyway. All the firmware UPDATES have been free thus far.


    from: http://www.kemper-amps.com/pag…/The_Kemper_Profiler.html
    FREE FEATURE UPDATE
    Wouldn’t it be great to beam a couple of different new tubes into your amp back from the 50s? Or magically let a couple of new stomps surface in your gig bag? In software you already can do that and we make extended use of it. Free feature additions by software updates for the Profiler is a tradition at Kemper. We pride ourselves to use what’s common in the computer world for a musical instrument as well, to your advantage. This way, your purchase becomes even more valuable over time.

    :)

    I think it would be nice of kemper to unlock the looper via midi with a definitive officially unsupported clause. I'm confident the folks at uno f kemper could offer a new chipset supporting this as they have done with beat scanner..., this would be a mutually beneficial arrangement with a small company who was the almost the only game in town for dedicated foot control supporting kemper... Uno4kemper sells more chips. All are happy. I would like to own a remote some day but not going to happen or not based on looper... Based on cash vs the Need.. I can buy a chip for looper integration vs seperate though.

    Quote from Michael_dk

    I don't think it was ever stated as such - I haven't seen it anyway.


    From the Remote Page (bold theirs): "There are dedicated buttons to access the tuner, tap tempo in and enable the new, exclusive Looper Effect."


    Quote from Michael_dk

    What I have seen is that they decided to implement the looper functionality in the looper rather than midi in order not hinder the ease of use.


    Well, it's always been in the Kemper, but up until the latest public FW3, the looper was fully accessible via MIDI. I'm betting the Remote works entirely via MIDI but won't know for sure until somebody wiresharks it.


    Quote from Michael_dk

    I don't think Kemper has a stated policy that all future features will be free updates either. I haven't seen it anyway. All the firmware UPDATES have been free thus far.


    From the Kemper Profiler web page where they have whole section called FREE FEATURE UPDATE (again, bold theirs): "Wouldn’t it be great to beam a couple of different new tubes into your amp back from the 50s? Or magically let a couple of new stomps surface in your gig bag? In software you already can do that and we make extended use of it. Free feature additions by software updates for the Profiler is a tradition at Kemper. We pride ourselves to use what’s common in the computer world for a musical instrument as well, to your advantage. This way, your purchase becomes even more valuable over time."


    Again, I support Kempers right to release what they want to release, when they want to release it. But read those quotes above a few times in light of this thread.


    Thanks, Peto :)


    I think the second part of that post is pretty clear; it doesn't say ALL new features will be free - so far, only this looper functionality is tied to the remote. There have been many, many other feature updates that were indeed free, so I don't think that goes against what happens with the remote here. The context it is written in is also "tubes" and "stomps", so I think that supports what I am saying (of course I would think that, being myself :-))


    The first point is a bit more obscure, granted. But the looper midi functionality is removed from the newer firmware, which in my book does make the statement from that page true (or close enough to it). That users have stumbled upon the midi functionality by themselves is an unrelated matter. Again, in my book.


    Incidentally, the statement does support the idea that the looper is a selling point of the remote. And would definitely make it more complex to allow midi control of it in a future FW release, sadly - to avoid claims of false advertising.

    Quote from Michael_dk

    And would definitely make it more complex to allow midi control of it in a future FW release, sadly - to avoid claims of false advertising.

    I think the support for other MIDI devices will not be complex - they only have to support two state of the switches - 0 and 1 on selected CC messages thats all. I understand that the lack of feedback about the looper state will be the problem but i think it easy to implement with another NRPN command( maybe it was implemented with NRPN looper commands also - for test purposes). In fact this is not Kemper Team problem how do you achieve this kind of MIDI functionality with you pedal board. They only have to document somewhere the specification of this MIDI NRPN's or CC's.

    Quote from Michael_dk

    Thanks, Peto


    I also thank you for constructive discussion. :)


    Quote from Michael_dk

    I think the second part of that post is pretty clear; it doesn't say ALL new features will be free - so far, only this looper functionality is tied to the remote.

    This thread wasn't started with intention to get something which is really tied to Remote. And that we don't want to pay for something. Kemper said that Looper (as they designed it) can only be run with Remote. That's OK. We just showed, that basic looper functions work with MIDI as well. So we made request. Not for the same looper that you get with Remote. Simple looper without any display or fancy button combinations.


    Quote from Michael_dk

    Incidentally, the statement does support the idea that the looper is a selling point of the remote. And would definitely make it more complex to allow midi control of it in a future FW release, sadly - to avoid claims of false advertising.


    Simple looper would not collide with the Remote looper I think. ;)

    Quote from DamianGreda

    I think the support for other MIDI devices will not be complex - they only have to support two state of the switches - 0 and 1 on selected CC messages thats all. I understand that the lack of feedback about the looper state will be the problem but i think it easy to implement with another NRPN command( maybe it was implemented with NRPN looper commands also - for test purposes). In fact this is not Kemper Team problem how do you achieve this kind of MIDI functionality with you pedal board. They only have to document somewhere the specification of this MIDI NRPN's or CC's.


    Read my post again :) I was talking about marketing or legal complexities, not technical ones :)

    Quote from DamianGreda

    I think the support for other MIDI devices will not be complex - they only have to support two state of the switches - 0 and 1 on selected CC messages thats all.


    I don't think they even have to go that far.


    I'm suggesting they simply remove the block they placed on the existing functionality via SysEx.