OK Testing FW 3.0! [How Kemper works? All amps sound similar]?

Quote from metalmike

Ignantios is comparing the twang of his real deluxe to a kemper's direct amp profile of the same amp (or similar fender amp with crystal clear clean sound) played through every guitar cabinet you can imagine, not through a FRFR. A fenderish clean direct amp profile through every guitar cabinet doesn't twang and it won't, because twang is a characteristic of tubes.

Thanks for putting this straight. I did read your comment more than once and always understand twang is a characteristic of tubes (not sure wether this is without exceptions). Thus a direct amp profile of a tube amp does not produce twang. If this is what you said then I'm even more confused because the tubes definitely don't get lost in the amp when profiled directly. I am quite happy with studio profiles or merged profiles so maybe I sholuld be quiet in this specific context. Those clean (merged with cab off) profiles I tried with the kemper and a solid state amp and a proper guitar cab produced all the the twang I asked for. I would not use the kemper that way fpor real though.
I sometimes get the impression that a considerable part of this discussion here is about amps and profiles driven to Desperation gainwise. So some of the real or believed results (including mine) may not be true for lower gain usage.
I like Christophe Seyler's plain and reasonable summary of the question in question. If this is true (and some results seem to endorse that notion) it chould be checked by Kemper or otherwise falsified.

Have fun

Joachim

Quote from ChristopheSeyler

I guess the message is : since the last firmware allows a true separation between amp and cab/mics, we notice that amp sounds are more similar than the real counterpart. As the cab/mics part is a huge part of the sound, this "weakness" of the kemper ampsim was masked in the past

I can surely second this fact. 4 years ago we made a profiling session, using the same physical cabinet with several heads. It appeared that two heads created identical profiles through the same cabinet. It was a Soldano and a Mesa, I think.

This is not a weakness of the Profiler. Any potential weakness of the Profiler should be revealed by the A/B comparison of the individual profile, not later by comparing different profiles.
However, the improved authenticity of each component when swapping amps and cabs will for sure reveal possible similarities among different amplifiers.

Quote from IGNANTIOS

i totally agree too......I can't find a clean profile to sound decent....or close enough to my deluxe.Every clean profile that i hear with the new method(i don't care about studio profiles ,i use real amp and cabinet.) has always gain in it's sound(no matter what) there is no twang at all.....and in comparison with my real fender amp loses every battle.The distorted profiles have the characteritic that sinmix and mdeerock claim.Kemper might do a great job direct to a p.a but for a real amp and cabinet.....nope.I have thought several times to sell the unit but something kept me away from doing it cause i thought with the new method the problem will be solved....but for me nope.

Can you tell us more about this problem, and how it appeares?
Do I get it correctly that you have created your own direct profiles of your amp?

a DI profile of a Fender deluxe will only sound like a Fender deluxe if connected to the same cab/speaker (in this case the combo itself)
If you would connect the real Deluxe to a 4x12 V30 cab or similar you would recognize the same "issue"
the twang comes also from speaker and the construction of a fender deluxe.

"Distorted DI profiles sound similar on same Cab/mic position" yes of course - the real Amps also. But a Marshall will still not sound like a Mesa for example. Not only in EQ also in Gain and "sparkle" string seperation, dynamics etc etc. This is not only with the real amps, also with the Kemper when using DI Profiles.

Short sayed - no issue for me....only if you want the non linearities of a real amp...but is this really needed? I dont think so...you also dont have those non linearities in full Studioprofiles

Quote from Deadlightstudio

If you would connect the real Deluxe to a 4x12 V30 cab or similar you would recognize the same "issue"

Even though i agree with you for a lot of things, i have to disagree on this. Real Deluxe twangs even if you connect it to a guitar cab like the one you said, we tested it with IGNANTIOS. Only the character of sound just changed, which is normal. We could even make JVM 205 twang a little through it's paired cab Marshall 4x12 Mustaine with v30. We never managed to get twang on a guitar cab with Kemper, even not with Deluxe's cab/speaker. The sound that was coming out was just a generic clean sound, sparkling yes, twanging no.

No need to start over now, it's all in the threat.
And the threat doesn't have 16 pages because noone sees any issue.

Quote from Deadlightstudio

a DI profile of a Fender deluxe will only sound like a Fender deluxe if connected to the same cab/speaker (in this case the combo itself)
If you would connect the real Deluxe to a 4x12 V30 cab or similar you would recognize the same "issue"
the twang comes also from speaker and the construction of a fender deluxe.

ok..
lets see .This you tube channel doesn't belong to me, a friend of mine asked me to do him a favour and play a couple of licks though his jvm with a cab loaded with v30 (to compare different pickups).Not the best choice for bluesy and twangy things ....but due to the fact that it's a real tube amp i think the twang is there.So for me the think that you mentioned doesn't exist.I repeat i 'm not the owner of that channel , i am only the guitar player(the video might clipping in some parts).

@Mr Kemper thanks for spending your precious time on a thread like this.In order to answer our questions(worries). yes i have profiled my deluxe amp.Most important is that i profiled only the pre amp and then use the profile of the kemper connected to the return of my deluxe and other ss amp but the twang was gone. I have used many di profiles(including mine) from clean fender amps with previous firmwares and the new one but i couldn't manage to recreate that twangy sound that i 'm in love with.Anyway i don't want to bother the community anymore with my observations anymore since as i can see there are only few members here who share the same opinion with me.(that we lose certain parts from the unique sound.) That is just my humble opinion i might be wrong or my ability of hearing is totally flawed.

did not know that..thats off course interesting

Quote from metalmike

Even though i agree with you for a lot of things, i have to disagree on this. Real Deluxe twangs even if you connect it to a guitar cab like the one you said, we tested it with IGNANTIOS. Only the character of sound just changed, which is normal. We could even make JVM 205 twang a little through it's paired cab Marshall 4x12 Mustaine with v30. We never managed to get twang on a guitar cab with Kemper, even not with Deluxe's cab/speaker. The sound that was coming out was just a generic clean sound, sparkling yes, twanging no.

Have you played around with any of the settings in the stack section? Try pick, definition and power sagging.

Define twang. Or provide a direct A/B clip

From what i know the twang is a technique of playing(picking a strings).

yeah clip of real amp + kemper and your Guitar + playing would be interesting

In my mind it is a very round upper mid tone created by picking dynamics and is most prevalent in el84 based amps.

Quote from meambobbo

Define twang. Or provide a direct A/B clip

I was trying to find out on youtube what Twang is... Only found crazy cowboys torturing their teles.

Also try the tonestack position to post or pre and browse(browse knob after you hit EQ) for some type of tone stack - Fender has typical to his amps tone stack after first tube stage.

You cannot profile everything as is. Try to dig in into the additional parameters.

It is impossible to put the signal in - get the signal out and model the black box with a lot of nonlinear behavior + separate all the blocks like cabs and amps and tonestack + preamp.

To me the fender "twang" is a combinatinon of the right guitar, a tiny tiny touch of breakup in the treble, and biggest and most important - reverb. You gotta use the matchbox reverb on the kemper as that's the closest to a spring, but without it you will not have your fender twang. It's that slight predelay together with the original signal that gives it that tone and feel for me.

On smaller fender's you can sometimes get a tubeyness which for me is what happens when you're pushing the power section. It's a sound that i would describe as "chewy", you dig in and are rewarded with a non-linear breakup that cleans up fast as the strings ring out, but it's enough that rhythm playing sounds dirty while leads can be almost bell clean. The little champ is great at this, I've not been able to reproduce this exactly with the Kemper. Instead the breakup to clean seems much more linear than the real deal. The real thing is almost frequency based as much as volume based. So I guess the Kemper would have to emulate this by changing the volume of the input frequencies quite a bit, maybe even compressing some input frequencies. Perhands i should try using a pre/post eq to see if that could get closer to the effect.

Quote from Per

To me the fender "twang" is a combinatinon of the right guitar, a tiny tiny touch of breakup in the treble, and biggest and most important - reverb. You gotta use the matchbox reverb on the kemper as that's the closest to a spring, but without it you will not have your fender twang. It's that slight predelay together with the original signal that gives it that tone and feel for me.

Hi Per,
hi Igantios

I cannot comment on the second part of Per's statement since I've only got a small Fender amp and thus am unable to compare it to something bigger of the fender family. But I absolutely agree to the first part of his statement. I'm quite sure that some reverb can be heard in Igantios jvm recording (thanks for it, I like it). I cannot imagine a twangy sound (Duane Eddy is a good example if not the very first example) without reverb. His sound especially on the deep e string is what I learned as the definition of twang when I was much younger. His was a fat bottomed (falcon?) Gretsch guitar and some kind of Fender deluxe reverb. Since he then was called the master of "twang" it's quite rewarding to dig into his sound when you want to know about the definition of twang. To my knowledge it's not that there is an abstract rule defining it; it just means sound like Duane Eddie.
Heinz, a somewhat minor guitar player and singer consequently got into the charts with "Just like Eddie".
Listen to Rebel rouser if you want to check for yourself:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGPG_Y-_BZI)
Naturally I don't have any rights on this Video.

Thanks for the reminder
Have fun
Joachim

I agree..