12- string guitar simulation like in the Digitech Mosaic

    I bought a Digitech Mosaic pedal a few weeks ago.
    http://digitech.com/en-US/products/mosaic


    Being a sucker for a 12 string sound now and then I always found it not practical to bring my Rickenbacker to gigs, mainly for tuning reasons.
    Also often I need to switch between my usual Telecaster and a 12-string sound in a song so up to now 12- string was reserved to recordings only.


    In comes the Mosaic. I'm not commenting on its features as these are all well documented, also there are lots of videos of it already on YT.
    I will only say that it has blown me away for making me think (as a player) that I'm playing an Ricky instead of my Tele.
    Switching to 12- string in a chorus? No problem now.


    It obviously works with a doubler and an intelligent pitch shifter and I would LOVE CK to make this effect possible in the profiler.
    Right now I have put the Mosaic in a loop in slot 1 and control it via Remote which is fine.

    Hi Ingolf, is this near to the mosaic sound?


    its a Fender champ 67 profile with a slightly chrom pitch


    Just a quick test recorded in 5 min.


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    It's close - but have too little noticeable octave sound - maybe analog octaver will do?
    edit - no:( it's generating octave down.

    Hey guys, while I appreciate your efforts to help me, let me tell you that your example sounds NOTHING like the Mosaic. The example given above is a steady octave up with a low mix, that's it.
    Also making use of the parallel path won't help.
    Please read what I'm writing as follows and don't tell me it is doable with the profiler or can be approximated. It is not doable right now with what`s available in the profiler and I'm not interested in an approximation.


    I posted this in the FR section because I would love it to happen in the profiler and hope to give the dev team something to chew on.


    In order to do this you must be aware what the Mosaic really does. The Mosaic works with intelligent polyphonic pitch shifting plus a doubler. When I refer to intelligent I'll come back to this later.
    How it works:
    1. When I play on the B and E string, the Mosaic adds a slightly detuned double tracked note, but no octave.
    2. When I play lower strings E-G, the Mosaic adds a double tracked note one octave up.
    3. Here's the weirdness and awesomeness: When I play say a G 3rd fret on the high E string the Mosaic adds a slightly detuned double tracked note with no octave, but if I play THE SAME note on the 12th fret of the G string or the 17th fret of the D string the Mosaic adds a double tracked note one octave up.


    Thoughts: The pitch detection in the Mosaic is very intelligent, not only detecting the absolute pitch (>> the any note above high B of the B string would only be double tracked but not octaved) but it also seems to take into account the bass content of a note (playing higher notes on lower strings contain more bass content) to determine if it should add an octave or not.
    In fact I haven't seen anything remotely similar to what the Mosaic does elsewhere, that's why I feel it belongs here (and that's why I bought the pedal).


    Conclusion: In order to achieve what the Mosaic achieves the profiler needs to have a new and improved (for this special task) pitch detection that determines if there's only detuning going on or octaving depending on the note being played and on which string it is played.
    This would need to be combined with a fixed double tracking algorithm plus a mix and high frequency content parameter like on the Mosaic.


    I feel that it could be achievable and hope it will happen.

    +1 I had attempted 12-string approaches a while back with the KPA... as Ingolf says, not even close! Would sincerely love it though CK, Nice analysis of the Mosaic, Ingolf.

    Gary ô¿ô

    Like 1

    Hi Damian, Ingolf is not interesseted in this, but i have tryed it with your parameters and the piezzo pick up of my ernie ball.
    Its a nice and full sound over the frfr, so i have a new sound in the box.Thanks Ingolf for this tread, without, i never tought about a sound like this.
    Its a peavey vypyr amp with a boogie 2x12 cab.

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    Yeah the pitch detection described here seems very inteligent, especially detection of the low frequencies amount to go or don't go octave up. By the way - I have 12str acoustic - should be the unisono strings (B and high E) slightly detuned?

    Quote from skoczy

    Yeah the pitch detection described here seems very inteligent, especially detection of the low frequencies amount to go or don't go octave up. By the way - I have 12str acoustic - should be the unisono strings (B and high E) slightly detuned?

    They are slightly detuned, like I have written above.

    Quote from Eltzejupp

    Hi Damian, Ingolf is not interesseted in this, but i have tryed it with your parameters and the piezzo pick up of my ernie ball.
    Its a nice and full sound over the frfr, so i have a new sound in the box.Thanks Ingolf for this tread, without, i never tought about a sound like this.
    Its a peavey vypyr amp with a boogie 2x12 cab.


    It's a nice chorus sound, no question. Not really 12-stringy in my mind, but nice.

    Gary ô¿ô

    Like 1

    Hi Ingolf,


    very well explained and well noted. As I was quite impressed by your rigid analysis I too bought a digitech mosaic. Sounds pretty - though not really convincing with a tele (too smooth) in my opinion. As someone put it: McGuinn would not sell his 12 string Rick in exchange for some digital voodoo. Then again a 6 string Rick or a six string Gretsch sound very convincing with lots of that sought after jingle jangle. I just put the mosaic between guitar out and KPA in. As far as I get it mini humbuckers or humbuckers sit well with the mosaic. Single coils need further research.


    Thanks again for the tips.

    Quote from HamerJo

    Hi Ingolf,
    very well explained and well noted. As I was quite impressed by your rigid analysis I too bought a digitech mosaic. Sounds pretty - though not really convincing with a tele (too smooth) in my opinion. As someone put it: McGuinn would not sell his 12 string Rick in exchange for some digital voodoo. Then again a 6 string Rick or a six string Gretsch sound very convincing with lots of that sought after jingle jangle. I just put the mosaic between guitar out and KPA in. As far as I get it mini humbuckers or humbuckers sit well with the mosaic. Single coils need further research.
    Thanks again for the tips.

    Hey, great to hear you got good results. You think a Tele is too smooth? Weeeeell.... :) Turn up the knobs.
    I'd still love Kemper to implement this in the profiler so finally a kind BUMP FOR CK. :)

    Quote from Ingolf

    [quote='HamerJo','http://www.kemper-amps.com/forum/index.php/Thread/20666-12-string-guitar-simulation-like-in-the-Digitech-Mosaic/?postID=237037#post237037']Hi Ingolf,
    ....
    I'd still love Kemper to implement this in the profiler so finally a kind BUMP FOR CK. :)


    Yes this would be very cool if this mosaic simulation would be a part of the KPA effects!

    Eltzejupp, that is a lovely sound.


    Ingolf, I wonder how the Mosaic's approximation compares to the Variax's model/s. I've forgotten whether or not there's more than one preset on the V'axe, but I do remember the 12-string's sounding pretty damned real to me.


    t's this sort of "oddball" coverage that made the L6 guitars worth the investment for me. You know - semi-acoustic jazz, resonator, sitar, acoustic, Ricks, dobro, 12-string and so on. It could work for you too, but you'd have to switch guitars and you've implied it's not practical in your situation. Mind you, if you could live with using the Tele and other electric models in those pieces, you could switch between songs and have access to not just the 12-string but also the regular acoustics along with all the other "oddball" guitars.


    Just a thought.

    @Monkey_Man, I have to admit I have owned 4 Variaxes from 2003 on, the 500, the 700, the 600 and the JTV69.
    While the 12-string emulation is pretty decent I couldn't bond with the guitars (you see I tried hard :) ) and to me the Digitech approach of intelligent pitch shifting plus doubling is definitely more appealing.