@mbenigni: But the limiting factor here is not FRFR.
It is whether we can embrace the 'recorded' amp sound that was captured and coloured by an SM57 or one of the other usual suspects or not.
What I wanted to say is that I can embrace this recorded amp sound without any problem because I have learned to love this recorded sound and not standing in a room with the amp.
My musical socialisation with these amps was via their recorded tone on recordings that I love.
QuoteBut the limiting factor here is not FRFR.
It is whether we can embrace the 'recorded' amp sound that was captured and coloured by an SM57 or one of the other usual suspects or not.
In some cases, yes - but how does this relate to direct profiles? If I want my FR modeling/ profiling amp rig to behave like (for instance) an old 1x12 combo sitting next to me, in a perfect world there would be a way to achieve this.
I'm not saying one or the other is better or worse - I'm just saying that they're still different, and sometimes the "familiar" is desirable.
In some cases, yes - but how does this relate to direct profiles? If I want my FR modeling/ profiling amp rig to behave like (for instance) an old 1x12 combo sitting next to me, in a perfect world there would be a way to achieve this.
In this case you're not ready for the paradigm shift and that's perfectly fine. 
Just go with the Direct Amp profile then and the 12" cab you want to hear.
In my opinion an FRFR solution that behaves like a cab will never exist ( same with the perfect world). 
In some cases, yes - but how does this relate to direct profiles? If I want my FR modeling/ profiling amp rig to behave like (for instance) an old 1x12 combo sitting next to me, in a perfect world there would be a way to achieve this.
I'm not saying one or the other is better or worse - I'm just saying that they're still different, and sometimes the "familiar" is desirable.
How will you capture the sound of the 1x12 cab without using a microphone???
What you are suggesting isn't realistically possible without a microphone that emulates the exact response of your ear canals, and even then it'll sound different to everyone else!
Direct Amp profiles will always be coloured by the guitar cab you decide to use, Studio profiles by the profiled cab and mic.
I like this discussion guys!
When I first bought an amp (combo, Mar***ll) I was pretty p--sed off that I could never get my guitar to sound like my guitar heroes' in recorded music. No matter how hard I tried, (pedals etc.) I just couldn't get there. Now, 25 years later I know why and have the solution to that problem - provided I learn how to play properly of course 
The Kemper is a great tool and I recon the miked studio approach is by far the best IMHO. It's the closest approximation to the real deal, especially if done by professionals and/or dedicated hobbyists. It ticks just about all the boxes. You can even do distance miking if you're careful just like Led Zeppelin did with John Bonham's drum kits to get depth and room feeling. I'm bowled over by the Kemper.
Ok, so you're not convinced - so sue me! 
S-J
QuoteIn my opinion an FRFR solution that behaves like a cab will never exist ( same with the perfect world).
Agreed on both counts. But I think there's still room for improvement (also on both counts LOL.)
QuoteHow will you capture the sound of the 1x12 cab without using a microphone??? What you are suggesting isn't realistically possible without a microphone that emulates the exact response of your ear canals, and even then it'll sound different to everyone else!
Good point. In order to make an FR rig behave just like a guitar cab rig, you have to take the mic out of the equation, which means the solution can't be based on profiling. It could be some kind of compensated profiling, or an entirely different type of modeling, i.e. a programmatic algorithm crafted by ear.
QuoteDirect Amp profiles will always be coloured by the guitar cab you decide to use..
Of course, but we can agree that - whatever guitar cab that might be - it will behave like a guitar cab.
Just philosophizing with you guys at this point. As I said earlier, I personally see value in both approaches. But ultimately I'd like to see an FR implementation so good that I'm never tempted back to guitar cabs. It would just make things simpler.
What the Kemper has done for me is open my ears to what the audience hears and forget about that dream stage sound that they never heard anyways. I used to get great tone and pray the sound guy could replicate it, never happened. Now I get my tone as close to the way I like it on stage as possible and then try to mimic it in FOH, maybe it's made me less selfish lol.
I also go back and forth between my cab and my DXR. I'm in a DXR phase now. For the DXR, I find i like using the studio eq to remove a deep narrow notch at about 370 hz. Dunno. I noticed that by adding a narrow notch at that freqency, the DXR sounded boxy. So i exagerated by removing a notch there.
I also go back and forth between my cab and my DXR. I'm in a DXR phase now. For the DXR, I find i like using the studio eq to remove a deep narrow notch at about 370 hz. Dunno. I noticed that by adding a narrow notch at that freqency, the DXR sounded boxy. So i exagerated by removing a notch there.
Hmm... I dunno, depending on the amount of dB you add to a notch of a certain low mid frequency it can always sound boxy.
Do you find you DXR sounds more balanced now?
Anyway, I don't recall the frequency plots published for the DXR having such exaggerations that make heavy EQing necessary.
I just would like t add something here, although I'm not a Kemper user (yet). I use a HD500 going through a Mackie SRM450.
I play in two bands. The first one is in traditional setting with accoustic drums and a base player with his rig (amp and cabinet). The second band uses electronic drums and here also the base player is running via emulation.
With the "simulated" band we all use monitors to hear us on stage and I really enjoy hearing myself via the Mackie. In the other band however (with the "real" instruments), I always have the feeling that my sound (coming from the Mackie) is missing something. It really seems that it doesn't blend well enough with the others. So here I really miss the amp in the room sound. Unfortunately the HD500 soulds terrible trough an amplifier and I can't change the EQ without changing the signal that I'm sending FOH.
The Kemper can solve this issue and even give me the possibility to go with a full rig to FOH, Feed a real guitarcab and even add a FRFR monitor if wanted.
I do not believe the paradigm shift! It all depends on the situation in my experience and I really support the view of having both a cab and an FRFR on stage. You have the best of both worlds. On the other hand, I'm also convinced that you have to create/tweak your sounds through a real PA or FRFR monitor so that you hear what the audience will hear.
I've always been a processor user, never owned a tube amp. So I don't miss anything when I go through a PA system or FRFR speakers.
I think the advantage of FRFR with the Kemper is better translation of tone across all monitoring devices being used at a venue where the variables are unknown. You want your band mates to be able to hear you too, right?
Also, since I don't own any of the fabulous amps I play through, it's imperative that I should be able to tell the nuances between each and for my audience to be able to, especially in a situation where there's no FOH and just your monitor or amp.
I never was able to get used to FRFR or find a good solution that I was happy with for on stage monitoring, so I simply abandoned that route, sold my Kemper and went back to a nice tube head. I use a Two-Notes live for my FOH tones and recording and I've not had a better sound these days. Again, what is strange is that when the stage is crammed and I only bring my head and the load box, I have no issues with what I am hearing through the monitors. It sounds great. All IMHO of course. You find what you like, then congrats and enjoy!
I do not believe the paradigm shift!
Welcome!
IMO it's not about 'believing' in the paradigm shift, it's more about becoming accustomed to using an FRFR on stage.
I have been able to become accustomed to it very quickly and would never bring my Marshall full stack or even the Vox AC 30 to gigs again.
But I absolutely accept that becoming accustomed to it is difficult for certain guitarists. Nothing wrong with it.
Speaking about different scenarions of use: When playing bigger stages my band uses acoustic instruments (drumkit, bass and guitar amplifiers, etc.) except me and my Kemper through an Atomic CLR or Yamaha DXR 10.
It sounds absolutely glorious and I get every 'in the room feel' that I could ever wish for.
Who wants to sell me their DXR10?
I suppose it depends on what frequencies of a profiled amp and cab can't be heard on a guitar power amp and cab compared to a frfr.
I'm not convinced there are actually many frequencies that are outside the limitations of the dpeakers micd up wgen prifiling the amp. The V30s I use have a frequency response of 70hz to 5khz which is nowhere near the ranges offered by frfr. I'm sure other 12" speakers are about the same.
Do we really need frfr ? I'm not convinced myself.
I think it's very simple.
A guitar speaker is made to color the sound a lot, and a full range speaker is designed to have very neutral eq. They can never sound the same. Some prefer one over the other. I like both options so I have both.
The point of having a full range speaker is to not color the sound of music songs playing or kemper amp profiles captured with different mics and speakers. If music or full profiles are played through a guitar speaker the result will be very colored by that speaker.
It can sound fantastic but it's not going to be a neutral representation of what is captured in the profile. The non linear eq curve of the guitar speaker will be added to the profiled amp, mic and speaker. Therefore it's good to bypass the cab part. To me a guitar cab with V30 speaker can sound great but its eq color also makes it very limited since it will always have its signature sound. Sometimes I don't want that.
Get both options! 
What I mean, is do we need speakers with a frequency response of 60hz to 20khz (FRFR) or could we do with a non FRFR monitor that is a lot cheaper. Guitar speakers are nowhere near the range of FRFR
Guitar speakers are MADE to colour the sound in a specific way at specific frequencies. Google speaker breakup and you'll see why FRFR and guitar cabs aren't interchangeable, if you want authenticity as per the Studio profile. It's debatable whether a flat response speaker needs to go all the way up to 20 kHz, however. From around 5k ordinary guitar speakers start to tail off rather rapidly and after 11k or so there's pretty much nothing.
Guitar speakers are MADE to colour the sound in a specific way at specific frequencies. Google speaker breakup and you'll see why FRFR and guitar cabs aren't interchangeable, if you want authenticity as per the Studio profile. It's debatable whether a flat response speaker needs to go all the way up to 20 kHz, however. From around 5k ordinary guitar speakers start to tail off rather rapidly and after 11k or so there's pretty much nothing.
Hi sambrox,
i agree, there is nothing after 11k. That was enough for more than 50 years of rock
At the moment i use both ,
an frfr from rcf and a mesa boogie 2x12 real cab. I have fun with both. The mesa cab has more punch when i play loud. For bedroom level tht rcf is unbeatable.
I totally agree with you! For bedroom level, FRFR is unbeatable. At volume, things get more hazy and subjective (it's called speaker BREAKUP for a reason )
