Line 6 Helix - next gen guitarist's wet dream..?

Quote from guenterhaas

For me the KPA is very, very unique, so there's no real competition from my point of view. It's the only tool, which is able to profile my own amps and put them into a small box. There are a lot of good guitar-devices on the market, but the KPA is revolutionary in many ways.

Effects are always a matter of taste, I'm really fine with a lot of the KPA-effects and I also like my effects and pedals from Strymon, Fulltone, Mad Professor, Okko ect. Some pedals sound very unique, too and you won't find them in any digital device.

Indeed, the Kemper is in a category all its own, and is a totally different animal from most anything else out there. The Kemper totally frees you from the limitation of having to use whatever model that is present in the modeler; if you can find a sweet amp that has that perfect tone, you can profile it and get 95% or more of that tone in the Kemper. And you can even enhance that tone with the Kemper deep parameters, making the profile possibly even better than the original amp (for example making its dynamics more usable with Distortion Sense and other parameters).

I have to say it is a bit strange watching the megathread on the Helix at TGP, and how many potential users are asking Line 6 to add certain specific amp models to the Helix, even before the unit is available for sale. Us Kemper users simply do not have that problem at all. It's really simple to add external effects of any kind to the Kemper, but it is far harder to get an accurate Dumble ODS or Friedman Pink Taco model into a Helix. I cannot imagine for a second going back to a Line 6 product.

Quote from MKB

. It's really simple to add external effects of any kind to the Kemper,

Which is why I'm looking at Helix, among other things. Nothing to do with amp tones that may or may not be in that box, but for the fx and routability and some flexibility to add to my Kemper. How good that implementation is going to be remains to be seen and I don't have a problem with waiting this one play itself out.

Imagine if the HELIX could be perfectly integrated with the Kemper with some kind of chip... And could be powered/switched etc. all by the one network cable! That would be insane...

The "one network cable thing" will not be possible.

I don't think it makes much sense to buy the Helix just for effects. There are many good units on the market (Strymon, Eventide H9 ect.), which can be easily used with the KPA, if somebody is not satisfied with the KPA-effects.

By the way, until now nobody here tested the Helix, so let's see, if the effects are really thaaaat good.

Yes, that is my worry too. I have the KPA and a bunch of Strymon effects, I would like to simplify the setup but chances are that the Helix won't compare to the KPA for tones nor to the Strymons for effects...so I wouldn't simplify anything and I would pay 1500 euros for a controller

Quote from MKB

It might be safe to guess that if Line 6 allows their guitarist at NAMM to only use a few amp models, and there are very few demo clips, that the device/models are still being perfected and not ready for prime time yet. And this is OK; many times a company will send an early alpha unit to trade shows to whip up interest.

I don't know if this adds up, though. Line 6 reps keep making the point that modeling a new amp takes as much as "one man-month" of effort. The Helix is scheduled to ship in 4-8 weeks depending on who you believe. So if it's not already packed with amazing sounding amps, they (and their customers) are in some serious trouble.

I think they just honestly believe that that (god-awful in my personal opinion) overdriven "plexi" tone holds some kind of universal appeal, and they haven't made it a priority to record anything else. I'm kind of operating on the "how bad can it be?" principle, given that I thought POD HD tones were "okay, not great", HX is likely to be at minimum a small improvement on HD, and the right IRs will go a long way to dress anything up. That, Line 6 effects (which I generally dig), flexible routing, and intuitive controller programming = worth the asking price (for me). If I had deeper pockets and more time with my guitar, I'd have a Kemper and a Helix... but I do not.

Quote from mbenigni

I don't know if this adds up, though. Line 6 reps keep making the point that modeling a new amp takes as much as "one man-month" of effort. The Helix is scheduled to ship in 4-8 weeks depending on who you believe. So if it's not already packed with amazing sounding amps, they (and their customers) are in some serious trouble.

I think they just honestly believe that that (god-awful in my personal opinion) overdriven "plexi" tone holds some kind of universal appeal, and they haven't made it a priority to record anything else. I'm kind of operating on the "how bad can it be?" principle, given that I thought POD HD tones were "okay, not great", HX is likely to be at minimum a small improvement on HD, and the right IRs will go a long way to dress anything up. That, Line 6 effects (which I generally dig), flexible routing, and intuitive controller programming = worth the asking price (for me). If I had deeper pockets and more time with my guitar, I'd have a Kemper and a Helix... but I do not.

It is possible that the Helix sounds great and the new models help in that regard, but it's possible (if not probable) that the rest of the software is still buggy and incomplete. That might be a reason that well known Line 6 users haven't had their hands on one except at shows and limited store demos. If the software isn't stable, one of these guys would make a video and show how poorly it works. This is not meant as a poor reflection on Line 6; I have worked at several companies that announced and showed products that would barely work, and the demonstrators had to be careful not to push the wrong button or do functions in a particular sequence or the unit would crash. We all might recall when even Bill Gates got a BSOD during his announcement of Windows 95. I'd guess too that the time between now and product release will be used to wring out the bugs.

My used Kemper had a problem and I sent it back to Kemper Americas for a replacement (long story with a happy ending, Kemper has unmatched customer support, but I digress). I had to use my old HD500 for a few gigs, and then got the Kemper back yesterday. All last night at practice I was in awe of the tone of the Kemper, and can't imagine how its tone or response can be improved. This is after 10 years of gigging with modelers and almost 35 years of playing. How in the world does Line 6 expect to play in this same league? They better bring some serious tonal game at the Helix's price point. It's just curious that they are stirring up the buzz on the Helix but have almost no real tone examples, when with the HD's early hype days there were many examples. Can't help thinking there is a reason.

Before I sold my HD500 I made an A-B-test with my KPA and I had the biggest laugh in my life, what a difference.....

I don't think that any Line 6-product (or any other modeller) is able to play in the KPA-league. There's no digital device I know, which can get that close to real tube amps, except the KPA.

Quote from MKB

It is possible that the Helix sounds great and the new models help in that regard, but it's possible (if not probable) that the rest of the software is still buggy and incomplete. That might be a reason that well known Line 6 users haven't had their hands on one except at shows and limited store demos. If the software isn't stable, one of these guys would make a video and show how poorly it works. This is not meant as a poor reflection on Line 6; I have worked at several companies that announced and showed products that would barely work, and the demonstrators had to be careful not to push the wrong button or do functions in a particular sequence or the unit would crash. We all might recall when even Bill Gates got a BSOD during his announcement of Windows 95. I'd guess too that the time between now and product release will be used to wring out the bugs.

All true, but Line 6 would be insane to announce a ship date (with confirmed pre-orders) so close if they were still in a development phase. Not saying it's impossible, just saying I can't imagine why they would do that to themselves. It's not like their customer base had any specific expectation - Helix hit us completely out of left field. If they're not already 99% ready to ship, I think they would have hung a vague "late 2015" or "Spring 2016" tag on it. Interest in the product could have survived the wait, easily. Anyway, hoping it really shows up in August or September as announced (and that it works, of course.)

Quote from MKB

My used Kemper had a problem and I sent it back to Kemper Americas for a replacement (long story with a happy ending, Kemper has unmatched customer support, but I digress). I had to use my old HD500 for a few gigs, and then got the Kemper back yesterday. All last night at practice I was in awe of the tone of the Kemper, and can't imagine how its tone or response can be improved. This is after 10 years of gigging with modelers and almost 35 years of playing. How in the world does Line 6 expect to play in this same league? They better bring some serious tonal game at the Helix's price point. It's just curious that they are stirring up the buzz on the Helix but have almost no real tone examples, when with the HD's early hype days there were many examples. Can't help thinking there is a reason.

+1. I know I was one of the more outspoken forum members with regards to aspects of "the Kemper experience" that I didn't like, but these two things are absolutely true: the KPA sounds incredible; Kemper stands by their product with excellent warranty service. As for the interest in Helix even in absence of audio samples, I think this just speaks to the fact that there is a demographic out there that consider features as important as tone (provided the tones aren't completely unusable, of course.) I don't personally expect the Helix to sound as good as the Kemper; I made a compromise in hopes that the Helix would be more practical for me. I'm hoping that the tones are excellent too, but acknowledge that I'm rolling the dice here. Maybe one day I'll circle back to Kemper, or detour again with a Fractal product, but hopefully by then there will be a new product that suits me better, e.g. a Kemper profiler in pedal format.

Quote from mbenigni

Line 6 reps keep making the point that modeling a new amp takes as much as "one man-month" of effort.

In this case we won't see too many new amp models I'm afraid.
BTW ist only takes a few "one man-minutes" to make a great profile.

Quote from guenterhaas

I don't think it makes much sense to buy the Helix just for effects. There are many good units on the market (Strymon, Eventide H9 ect.), which can be easily used with the KPA, if somebody is not satisfied with the KPA-effects.
By the way, until now nobody here tested the Helix, so let's see, if the effects are really thaaaat good.

I said it before, but IF the Helix FX are really good it'd make perfect sense to buy it as an FX and controller unit alone, regardless of its modeling capabilities.
And remember, the Helix is about the price of three Strymons.

Quote from Ingolf

I said it before, but IF the Helix FX are really good it'd make perfect sense to buy it as an FX and controller unit alone, regardless of its modeling capabilities.
And remember, the Helix is about the price of three Strymons.

That's been exactly my point all along. No more, no less.

Seeing how I own zero Strymons, I only need to wait and see if the Helix delivers in any of the categories I'm looking at. No rush whatsoever.

Quote from Ingolf

I said it before, but IF the Helix FX are really good it'd make perfect sense to buy it as an FX and controller unit alone, regardless of its modeling capabilities.
And remember, the Helix is about the price of three Strymons.

I agree Ingolf, but the FXs has to be stellar to compete with a Fractal FX8 at $1399.00US. The price of the Helix is what is the most mysterious to me, do they have a real breakthrough or is it just and other Line 6 marketing trick? They are, for sure, aware of the competition offering in this price range so maybe they have a lot more than just an innovative and flashy interface to offer after all?... We'll see!

Quote from Pick909

I agree Ingolf, but the FXs has to be stellar to compete with a Fractal FX8 at $1399.00US. The price of the Helix is what is the most mysterious to me, do they have a real breakthrough or is it just and other Line 6 marketing trick? They are, for sure, aware of the competition offering in this price range so maybe they have a lot more than just an innovative and flashy interface to offer after all?... We'll see!

As I see it, when people talk about the price of the Helix, they tend to compare apples and oranges. The first and most common example is, "What? A Line 6 modeler for the same price as a Kemper??", when in fact it is significantly less expensive, especially when you account for the cost of a full-featured footcontroller. The FX-8 comparison is similar: a professional multi-effects unit versus a high-end (jury's out on the "professional" qualifier) amp modeler with effects, expression pedal, extensive I/O and programmability. Plus the value of having all of that in one box. Comparing the Helix with the (as yet unreleased) AX-8 would be closer to the mark, but this too is apples and oranges. Cliff Chase himself has said that the Helix is more of a feature rich product, whereas he has focused costs on audio quality. You could call it a quality over quantity approach if you assume the Fractal will be perceptibly better. Even if it is, I think there's a place for a product like the Helix: close enough for rock and roll, with all the necessary parts in one convenient package.

Quote from mbenigni

As I see it, when people talk about the price of the Helix, they tend to compare apples and oranges. The first and most common example is, "What? A Line 6 modeler for the same price as a Kemper??", when in fact it is significantly less expensive, especially when you account for the cost of a full-featured footcontroller. The FX-8 comparison is similar: a professional multi-effects unit versus a high-end (jury's out on the "professional" qualifier) amp modeler with effects, expression pedal, extensive I/O and programmability. Plus the value of having all of that in one box. Comparing the Helix with the (as yet unreleased) AX-8 would be closer to the mark, but this too is apples and oranges. Cliff Chase himself has said that the Helix is more of a feature rich product, whereas he has focused costs on audio quality. You could call it a quality over quantity approach if you assume the Fractal will be perceptibly better. Even if it is, I think there's a place for a product like the Helix: close enough for rock and roll, with all the necessary parts in one convenient package.

Keep in mind that I was talking about someone who would want to use the Helix for the FXs only. In this regards to compare it with a FX8 makes a lot of sense!

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Maybe someone can help with embedding.

http://soundcloud.com/line6/sets/helix

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Thank you Zapman!