taking care with different rigs live

    I'm the guitar player for a few bands, and more often than not I'm also the soundman for an 8 piece band with a 3 piece horn section (while playing guitar and singing... I'm busy.)


    And this, I think, has given me a perspective that I haven't really seen discussed which is the idea of using various rigs with radically different sounds at a live gig.


    It's one thing to use an AC30 for clean tones and a Marshall for dirty, but it's a soundman's nightmare when you go from a nice warm vintage marshall plexi on one tune to a scooped Rectifier on the next. You're likely to wonder where the guitar went because the engineer EQ'd you for a Marshall and then you switched to the exact opposite.


    I've learned to keep my rigs in the same family by and large. My clean tones are mostly Fender-ish and my dirty tones are more Marshally than anything else (even though I'm not using a Marshall.) But I've found that if I switch over to the EVH it sounds really bright and harsh with no meat because it's considerably brighter than the Marshall with considerably less mids.


    Once I've "carved a space" for a Marshally tone in my EQ with the other instruments and singers, the EVH tone doesn't fit in that same space and if I want to use that sound I need to adjust the EQ of other instruments in the mix to make room.


    Just something I've learned over the past couple of years gigging with the KPA that might help someone just getting on with it.

    Good topic and I agree completely.
    As a guitarist within a band you are making a very strong 'EQ statement' by how your amp is dialed in and more importantly what cab you are using.
    You'll then find a place in the arrangement and frequency spectrum that's going on with the other instruments and it's not a good idea to leave the territory you have occupied or are given to you by the soundguy and the other instruments.


    I always recommend to stay at least on the same cab most of the time while changing amps.

    Very interesting point of view, one of the many reasons for using a digital amp device is that you get all of these amazing amps in one box but it will of course change how you sit in the mix. One thing that I do to try and minimise this, at a slight compromise, is to use the same cab section in the KPA over all the amps. This way you get the distortion characters but the overall tone space is similar.

    I think this is especially important when changing sounds within a song - you don't want your guitar to disappear when you get to the chorus;) Level matching helps, but "sonic space" matching will make the sound levels more consistent.


    If different songs have different sounds and feels, it is a different issue- especially if you are working with a keyboardist who also uses a lot of different sounds. The sounds chosen all need to work together.

    Very timely post! I use a Masotti head with 2 different cabs and haven't used one of them in months, it's just not cutting it on stage. The Rectifier I love but the Dragoon cab (the original cab with the profile and my mainstay for over a year) just sounds like mud to me since I bought a new setup a while back (Matrix/Mission). I played around with it yesterday and gave up, wound up swapping the Dragoon for a Marshall 1960. Its clear and bright, punchy mids, no boomy bottom and not as gritty as the Mesa. Now I have a smooth Marshall and an in your face Mesa. Perfect!

    I'm also guitarist+soundman for a couple bands I play with, but don't experience any of these problems. I hardly ever touch the EQ on my channelstrip(s) on the mixing console, but run it flat and do all EQing for the guitar on my KPA. Then I set whatever tone I want from any rig/profile and just need to match volumes so that all my different patches are relatively equal. I can play a clean blackface and immediately switch to a heavily distorted Mesa or 5150 and it all sounds just as expected. In addition to that I run a number of other string instruments (mandolin, banjo, acoustic bass, nylon+steel acoustic) through my KPA without touching the EQ on the mixer. I have levels for the different instruments set appropriate on the KPA and never need to touch the settings of my channels on the mixer during a show even if I swap between 5 or 6 different instruments.

    Quote from heldal

    I'm also guitarist+soundman for a couple bands I play with, but don't experience any of these problems. I hardly ever touch the EQ on my channelstrip(s) on the mixing console, but run it flat and do all EQing for the guitar on my KPA. Then I set whatever tone I want from any rig/profile and just need to match volumes so that all my different patches are relatively equal. I can play a clean blackface and immediately switch to a heavily distorted Mesa or 5150 and it all sounds just as expected. In addition to that I run a number of other string instruments (mandolin, banjo, acoustic bass, nylon+steel acoustic) through my KPA without touching the EQ on the mixer. I have levels for the different instruments set appropriate on the KPA and never need to touch the settings of my channels on the mixer during a show even if I swap between 5 or 6 different instruments.

    If you have never experienced any of these problems your music must be very well arranged, leaving lots of space for any Instrument to be heard clearly.

    Quote from Ingolf

    If you have never experienced any of these problems your music must be very well arranged, leaving lots of space for any Instrument to be heard clearly.


    I didn't say that finding the levels for every patch is easy, but with a lot of practising through a full-blown PA-rig levels are well established before I get as far as to play for an audience. To leave space for each other is an important part of playing in a band, dynamics being the most important aspect of that. There are people who play to show off and there are people who play to present their music. One of these categories are people I don't waste my time playing with. You can probably guess which?


    OP gave the impression that he felt the PA-mixing-console needed to have the EQ tweaked differently depending on which profile he is using. This is what I question. When I have my guitar tones dialled in so that they sound good in headphones or studio monitors then they also sound good through the PA-rig, and there is no need to tweak the FOH-mixers EQ as I switch from one performance/slot to the other. The only slight issue is, just like with any other sim or with real amps, that what sounds excellent on its own doesn't always cut it in a mix so I always do the final tweaking of my live tones at rehearsal. On stage, when I handle the mix myself, I use IEMs connected to the studio-monitor-outputs on the mixing console so that I hear the same mix the audience is hearing. The overall mix is always compensated for the tonal characteristics of the venue, but once that is done I rarely have to touch anything. I may tweak the mix during a session, but my own guitar is the channel(s) that require the least attention. Probably because I'm very aware of mixing issues in everything I do. When I do FOH mixing for other bands I have noticed that guitar-players who use amp-sims generally are more aware of audio-levels than those with traditional amps. I am much more likely to have to move faders to compensate for inadequate dynamic variation when traditional amps are involved.

    @heldal: I totally get what you want to say and where you're coming from.
    And my post above wasn't meant to show any disrespect to your point of view.


    Still I think the OP's post is very thoughtful and balanced, and, like he states this topic isn't discussed very often but should be.
    We often hear statements like 'sitting in a mix' .
    Thinking about my own EQ fingerprint as a guitarist certainly helps.

    Heldal you are right, it totally can be done. And if you dial in your rigs with your "soundman hat" on, you'll likely tend to make rigs that are more "sonic real-estate friendly."


    I used to do that. I would pull lows out on the KPA so as not to muddy the mix, and in general I created my rigs in a "fitting with the band" mentality from the start so I would not have to touch the EQ on the console at all... I simply don't have the time or resources to do it in the middle of a show.


    And to be clear, going from clean to overdriven usually isn't an issue. Those spaces are different enough that I don't have issues. But, for example, I tend to play with a more mid-focused tone in general. I have a profile of my Egnater TOL100 that I use for 80% of a night.


    However, on some occasions I have strayed to using my EVH rigs to sound more like the original recordings. Well, EVH stuff is anything but warm compared to the way I usually run my rig - that's not good or bad just different and I'm not judging.


    But suffice to say, when I tried to get closer to the original I strayed considerably further away from my normal tone, and the overall band sound suffered as a consequence when my tone started stepping on other things.


    I'm not complaining nor am I looking for advice and my example is simply one I chose off the top of my head. I only put this out there in case there are others faced with a similar situation that maybe aren't comfortable with a mixing console and mixing a band in general. Some people may not be aware of how the sonic landscape has to be divided as you increase the instrumentation.


    Just a little food for thought is all. Carry on!

    One suggestion for something I've done in the past that hasn't been mentioned yet: Record it.


    Open up Logic or Protools or whatever DAW you use, and record the first part with one amp on one track, and the second part with the other amp on a second track. It doesn't have to be great - you're getting an idea for the tonal footprint. You can then look at the EQ curve (pull up an EQ unit on both channels, and turn the "preview" or "monitor" switch on). More than likely, a higher gain amp will be more compressed (which will make it seem more bass-heavy), whereas something like an AC-30 will hit more of the midrange or highs.


    This gives you an idea of what you need to adjust with an EQ or compressor in your effects chain to make it sit better. Lowering the gain by 10-20% on the higher gain amp will result in less compression, giving a more dynamic feel, and, since the Kemper has that nifty compression knob in the amp settings, that can help too. Driving a higher gain amp sound with a tube screamer set with very, very low drive/gain and added volume will tighten up the sound. Boosting and cutting EQ on the higher gain setting to match the EQ curve of the clean amp will make it fit in the mix better. It's nice to put an EQ in the X or Mod spot, so you're not affecting what's going into the amp, but after it's come out.


    It's the big problem with high-gain amps - because they're so compressed, they sound wonderful by themselves, but get lost very easily in a mix, and they end up trampling on other instruments (mainly the bass) when turned up loud enough to cut through.


    You may end up with something that may not seem like the "perfect" sound you dialed in before, but the goal is not to have a "perfect" sound for you - the goal is to have a "perfect" sound for the band and the mix.

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack

    Like 1

    Good thread.Actually this issue is one of my biggest concern.I already ade the decision for not using any "modern ultra-bigh-gain"-amp for my live-gigs.Keeping it more in the traditional not so high compressed but more in the open sounding mid-freq I know all my live.


    This needs a lot more expirience and then discussion.


    Again, good thread.

    Quote from Booyah

    I use a Masotti head with 2 different cabs ... the Dragoon cab (the original cab with the profile and my mainstay for over a year)


    OT: it seems that you like/know Italian products! i own a Dragoon 2x12" with Celestion Century neodymium and I love it with my Ambrosi PowerAmp!


    OT MODE OFF