Andertons Helix Vid

Quote from dougc84

3. Their modeling process is like the Kemper's profiling process, except capturing individual portions of an amp's internals.

Hi Doug,

I would cordially disagree with your #3 comment. The Line 6 Helix's modeling process is absolutely nothing like the Kemper's patented profiling method. It is simply an evolutionary step upon their traditional mathematical modeling of amp components/circuitry, which they have been doing since AX2 and POD days. Kemper's profiling process is an entirely different paradigm from that of any digital modelers on the market.

The Line 6 representative kept using the term "profiling", when discussing what the R&D guys were doing when analyzing circuits and components within an amp. However, it is definitely not profiling, as per the KPA process. Lee Anderton even tries to politely clarify / correct the rep's mis-use of the terminology, beginning at 08:15.

Exactly.

I was a little miffed at the rep's, and others I've seen, attempt at not-so-subtly moving in on the Kemper's territory. The KPA alone occupies this space; there is only one "profiler".

Component modelling has been around for a long time; synths and various outboard processors have been modelled this way by all and sundry. It's no different from how "science" models pretty much anything - bung in a set of variables (read: component models), and see how they interact, or more importantly, what the result is. In the case of "science", it's a number or value of some sort. For us, it's sound.

The hype train seems to have elevated even the L6 reps to fever pitch. I humbly recommend a cool, wet towel to those who've allowed the rapture to affect their judgement thusly.

Quote from Monkey_Man

Exactly.

I was a little miffed at the rep's, and others I've seen, attempt at not-so-subtly moving in on the Kemper's territory. The KPA alone occupies this space; there is only one "profiler"g

Component modelling has been around for a long time; synths and various outboard processors have been modelled this way by all and sundry. It's no different from how "science" models pretty much anything - bung in a set of variables (read: component models), and see how they interact, or more importantly, what the result is. In the case of "science", it's a number or value of some sort. For us, it's sound.

The hype train seems to have elevated even the L6 reps to fever pitch. I humbly recommend a cool, wet towel to those who've allowed the rapture to affect their judgement thusly.

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Haha, what a great assessment, mate!

Thank you, Ingolf.

It's mostly my own work, with a little help from my grandma.

+1. It's interesting how company staff from Line6, Bias, Fractal, Peavey Revalver suddenly use "profiling" as a new marketing word even though their products only do the traditional component modeling by measuring amp components and recreating them in a digital form. They have of course absolutely nothing to do with profiling technology and patent, but the marketing target is the majority of users who are clueless and believe it. Fractal Cliff Chase said "soon we get our own profiling", which proved to be only traditional eq tone matching that users already had requested years earlier when doing it the old way with plugins like Ozone. Even Bias and Revalver use eq tone matching (and all other products can use it). It's a bit sad and dishonest when companies have products they feel can't stand on their own features and sound without using false marketing claims hoping to gain more customers.

I'm not impressed with the sounds but the Helix looks great to me with plenty of smart features. Most important is IR loading, but I have a feeling Line 6 won't inform users enough how important IRs are for a great sound. I think it will out-compete the Fractal Ax8 since it offers so much more and will be available everywhere. Still, having a 1500$ modeler at your feet is not for everyone, better get the rack version + controller then. For me the ultimate test for digital amps is always authenticity when direct comparing sound and feel to the real amp and this is where the Kemper shines. If I didn't care that much about amp autheticity and wanted more things to tweak then the Helix would be an option. I will def try one after release like I do with most digital amp gear.

I probably will try one as well and if I used a lot of effects I would maybe be tempted to buy one. But if I am not gonna use a real amp then The Kemper does it for me and I still haven't used all the features on it. I love the tone and feel of my KPA

As do we all, Whippin'Boy!

Quote from HappyKemper

I will def try one after release like I do with most digital amp gear.

100% agreement with everything you said, HK.

I do look forward to hearing your perspective on the modelling (not profiling!) authenticity once you've taken one for a spin.

Quote from HappyKemper

Still, having a 1500$ modeler at your feet is not for everyone, better get the rack version + controller then.

well, the point is that it will cost much more then (around 2,000 IIRC) :o

The FX loops and routing are the only interesting thing for me. If the looper on the Remote was an FX loop, I'd be in heaven.

Quote from sambrox

The FX loops and routing are the only interesting thing for me. If the looper on the Remote was an FX loop, I'd be in heaven.

To me, it's the one, and only one thing, I truly wish the Kemper hardware had. Instead of utilizing an output for the FX loop, I'd love to see a dedicated stereo loop and a dedicated mono loop, so users could run two simultaneously without interfering with the outputs. A stereo loop run in the stomps section would be summed mono, and a mono loop run in the Mod or X slot would just remain mono, and sum any stereo effects before it.

I run several overdrives, a wah, and a volume before the amp, and two Strymon pedals in the FX loop. Sometimes I'd like to have the Timeline before the amp. Sometimes I'd like to have a compressor before the overdrives. I've got all the MIDI control functionality already - if I could do this, I would stash everything but the wah and volume in a rack. My pedalboard's too heavy, even with a recent rebuild (still in progress... ugh).

Looks like a great product , but I am absolutely not impressed with sound .

I'll give you one example:

Yesterday , I dive into TAF Fargain profiles again , meaning I was playing Fargen amps all day long.

No way any modeller could get even close to this organic natural sounds .

And what if Andy (yes Andy ,do that please ) do the Fargen profiling again , this time even better ?

That's mean that TAF Fargain profiles will be even more organic and real .

And where is the limit in this Kemper business ?

No limit, it is just up to better and better profiling sessions , it is not up to Kemper device it self .

@dougc84 don't you find the effects in the Kemper useable then? The compressor and wah I find pretty good although I'm still not a fan of the overdrives and prefer to set up a higher gain slot for solos than to add an internal overdrive. Was just surprised you want to add so many effects into the loop. I also use only one expression pedal for wah, volume or whammy effects.

At my knowledge there is still no impartial review on the web. I mean don't expect a real review from Anderton's guys when the Line 6 Rep. is just sitting by them... This video is a showcase nothing more. So what can we conclude? Well, it seems to sound much better than a HD500, much much better... But I seriously doubt it will be enough to convince most Kemper users!

My GAS might be subsiding. I'm thinking of cancelling my preorder.

I actually thought the andertons video sounded much better for high gain than other demo. I didnt hate them. Didnt love them either and theres obviously a huge quality leap in tone from helix to kemper. But i generally like the improvements theyve made. Hopefully the trend continues pushing prices downward

I don't think that we can make that assertion yet. We haven't really heard it at all.

I'd be surprised if you were wrong though.

Quote from Rescator

Looks like a great product , but I am absolutely not impressed with sound .

I'll give you one example:

Yesterday , I dive into TAF Fargain profiles again , meaning I was playing Fargen amps all day long.

No way any modeller could get even close to this organic natural sounds .

And what if Andy (yes Andy ,do that please ) do the Fargen profiling again , this time even better ?

That's mean that TAF Fargain profiles will be even more organic and real .

And where is the limit in this Kemper business ?

No limit, it is just up to better and better profiling sessions , it is not up to Kemper device it self .

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In the last few days I played for hours the Matchless and Carr profiles from TAF.I just could NOT play anything else.And I have to try so many other great profiles I already have downloaded..but these two profiles are so fine..just couldn´t stop playing them(only "blue jean blues" and "la grange" with the carr s6 for hours and hours).And still cant.

As you say.There is absolutely no real reason for one more modeler amp which has 2-3 presets of each "brand name" made by guys who believe that this or that amp should sound like this or that..just the thoughts of it is so frustrating.And the KPA has already shown that this way (modeling and not profiling) has become completely absurd.New modelers wont sound better than the supa dupa double ultra DSP-AxeFx and even this modeler sound completely "overprocessed" when compared to the "real" sounds of the KPA.Some guys will disagree but for me this is a fact.

As for the FX-discussion..for me personally the effects in the KPA are an absolute overkill.Dont need more.I can understand why some guys need more FX but most of us will never need only 10% it than of what you will find in the profiler.

I tend to agree, Nikos, but it's nice to know they're there; you never know when you'll need them.

For folks who're gigging the FX must be a Godsend. Saves on pedals and headaches.

Quote from PhilUK84

My GAS might be subsiding. I'm thinking of cancelling my preorder.

LOL. The HHT™ has left the station... and a passenger has fallen off.

Quote from Netheravon

@dougc84 don't you find the effects in the Kemper useable then? The compressor and wah I find pretty good although I'm still not a fan of the overdrives and prefer to set up a higher gain slot for solos than to add an internal overdrive. Was just surprised you want to add so many effects into the loop. I also use only one expression pedal for wah, volume or whammy effects.

I do like the wahs and the overdrives (mostly) in the Kemper, but I have some issues with it.

I spent years trying out overdrive pedal after overdrive pedal to drive a Vox AC-15. I like to stack overdrives to create my sound instead of using one "amp" sound, though I will often use a low- or mid-gain amp and drive that further when I need a little "more." I settled on two pedals that, to my ears, cannot be reproduced accurately on the Kemper, and provide exceptionally transparent sounds, so they work whether I'm in my normal setting (typically a worship band, shoegaze, ambient, etc. where I have to create space, particularly when we don't have a keyboardist) or I'm playing heavier gain stuff, a la Dream Theater, Steve Vai, modern metal stuff, etc. I've gotten close with one (6 Degrees FX Sally Drive), but the Addrock Ol' Yeller is rare, hard to find, and produces a very unique sound that I just can't match close enough for comfort with the Kemper. My third overdrive (and quite possibly my favorite overdrive of all time) is a Fulltone Fulldrive 2 MOSFET, but my last one died about a year ago, and I just ordered a new one that will be going on my board next week. There's a tonality to the MOSFET and the vintage mode that I just cannot achieve with anything else.

Putting 3 OD slots on a rig doesn't give me much pre-amp flexibility (i.e. I have to pick an EQ, compressor, or gate, and forget using a wah, because those have priority). Plus, when I use a wah, I like it before my overdrives, not after, or in the middle. By driving the sound before the Kemper, I have 4 slots to shape the sound however I want, typically with EQ, compressor, and a gate (not necessarily in that order). I could sacrifice one pre-amp stomp slot for a loop without an issue. More than that, and I start running into problems. Having a second available FX loop slot for this stuff would allow me to throw the loop after an EQ and compressor for one setup, before in another, and introduce shapers before the loop for some interesting sounds.

The compressor in the Kemper certainly meets my needs (I'm not that picky on compressors - do what I want, and I'm happy). I don't have the need for a $250 compressor, or a $200 boost pedal. I can achieve what I need just fine on the Kemper. And some of the overdrive sounds I've gotten out of it sound great as well, and I've stacked those "virtual" overdrives with my own with really nice results. They get me about 80% of the way there, and, for a small gig without a lot of space, I could make due with the Kemper alone, but it would take some work.

The delay and reverb, IMO, are seriously lacking. I can get some really solid basic delay settings out of the Kemper, and I've gotten a few "in the room" reverb sounds that aren't bad. But, with what I play, I'll often run a delay on my Timeline (in the FX loop in the X slot) that has 10 or 15 repeats on it, and a harmony effect (their Ice algorithm), and that runs into my BigSky, which might have a massive 20 second decay and some interesting reverberation options (I'm a fan of their cloud and chorale algorithms). Sometimes I drop back to simple "amp-like" spring reverb and no delay, or a nice hall with a dotted 8th delay on the Timeline. It's easier for me to interface with the presets I've built on my Timeline and BigSky rather than having my delays and reverbs originate from two different places depending on necessity for a tune. So I leave the Delay and Reverb off 95% of the time on the Kemper.

So, to summarize, a second FX loop where I could run the Kemper's compressor or an EQ BEFORE my stomps, all while keeping the stereo FX loop running, would be ideal for my setup. I don't expect anything like this to happen any time soon (if at all), especially since a lot of people don't run things in this manner, but it would be cool if it did. As it stands, I currently view my Kemper as a MIDI-controllable super mega head unit, with a multi-effects processor built in. I primarily use the effects for "finishing" my tone, but it's nice to have the ability to add a nice tremolo or flanger from time to time, or do some cool pitch shifting (though it doesn't work well with overdrives before the amp, again, another issue!).

Great in depth and interesting reply, @dougc84 I'm gonna go check out some of those pedals on line now