Andertons Helix Vid


  • Component modelling has been around for a long time; synths and various outboard processors have been modelled this way by all and sundry. It's no different from how "science" models pretty much anything - bung in a set of variables (read: component models), and see how they interact, or more importantly, what the result is. In the case of "science", it's a number or value of some sort. For us, it's sound.


    The hype train seems to have elevated even the L6 reps to fever pitch. I humbly recommend a cool, wet towel to those who've allowed the rapture to affect their judgement thusly.


    Did you just diss "science"?? That's a pretty hazardous place to begin if you're setting out to challenge anyone else's judgement. :P


    First off, it's numbers in either case. Until you hit a DAC at any rate, at which point it's electricity (OK, it's electricity all along...) It's not sound "for us" or for anyone else until you hit a speaker. It's not magic either.


    "Profiling" vs. "modeling" is almost entirely a matter of semantics. In either case, a signal is being subjected to mathematical algorithms in an effort to make it sound different. The main distinction in profiling, as the advent of the KPA defines the term, is that those algorithms are made sufficiently consistent and streamlined that their optimization can be automated. CK's achievement is in having arrived at a system of equations that can universally describe the characteristics of an entire signal path, having observed that path at two points accessible to the end user: input and output. As a result, profiling is fast, and can be repeated by the end user until the results are satisfactory.


    "Modeling" isn't inherently inferior. In fact a lot of purely theoretical arguments (specifically those pertaining to component interaction) would have it the other way. It just happens that modeling efforts to date haven't been as successful as Kemper's results with profiling, at least in the opinion of most here, including myself. But the future is wide open. There's no reason to pretend a modeler can't sound good just because it doesn't "profile" per se.


    I agree with viabcroce: a product as feature-rich as the Helix, but with a block that could read KIPR profiles instead of (or in addition to) IR's would be ideal. But wishing won't make it so, so you weigh your priorities and pick a lane.

  • From what I read on the Internet, modelling has a couple of major obstacles that have yet to be overcome (although maybe Helix will have cracked them). The first is that analogue components are non-linear. That is to say, you can't say input X multiplied by component Y equals output Z, as the effect of Y varies as it isn't static in relation to the input X, meaning that the equation turns into an algorithm, and a very complicated one at that. The second is that all the different variables themselves have a different effect depending on where in the signal chain they are and where they physically are in relation to one another, due to factors such as heat, magnetic fields, rf interference and so forth. This in turn makes it impossible to, say, decipher all the components of a Fender Deluxe, but then apply them to a Marshall Plexi schematic. Modellers and the associated engineers really are worth their pay!

  • I agree with TAF Andy. It sounds exceptionally average to me. Not even as good as my POD 2 and Eleven Rack, amp wise.
    I don't get the enthusiasm about this.

    The key to everything is patience.
    You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it.
    -- Arnold H. Glasow


    If it doesn't produce results, don't do it.

    -- Me

  • I myself am still looking at it for the effects, the gui and the connectivity. Ampsim fails don't concern me much as I've got my Kemper for that.
    If the effects turn out to be meh as well, that's when I'll give up on it. As it is, I'm still somewhat interested in it.

    I'm just trying to be as truthful to my experience and personal opinion that I'm clearly presenting only as a personal opinion no more no less in an honest and truthful discussion about equipment.

  • Quote

    "Profiling" vs. "modeling" is almost entirely a matter of semantics.


    No.It is not.And nothing could be more far away from the reality then this.The difference between "modeling" and "profiling" is here and an elephant in the room.Yes..it is this huge.It is such a huge difference that I thought we dont even need to bother explaining it.But okay.Here we go..
    "Modelling" from the Line 6 Axsys till the "modelers" today:Some guys-good scientists and sure also good musicians-sit some where in a laboratory and listen to old marshalls,fenders,Vox as well as to newer "boutique"-style amps and then they tweak and hustle to get these sounds into a chip.They wont ask you or me about what we want to hear from any amp.What is "your Plexi-sound" dear friend @mbenigni;Is it the same that it is for me;Almost every expirienced guitar freak will tell us that every good sounding plexi is completely different.The same is true for the vintage Fender amps or any legendary vintage amplifier.


    Something similiar can be said about the "Boutique"-amplifiers.I want a completely different SLO-100 sound than these I heard in any modeler till this day.Even the profiles in the rig exchange do not even come close to "what I want" from a SLO-100.


    And here comes the profiler.With the KPA we are able to define "our sound" ourselves.We dont need to spend thousands of bucks and just hope that we can "tweak" the ears and the mood of someone else untill we like it..or maybe not..than (if we are lucky) we are "87% close".This after 20 years of modeling-technology.Some guys (you know of whom I talking about) will claim that "their modeler sound even better than the original" because it has a dozen or so ultra fast DSP chips and their "guru" gives them every three weeks new firmwares "to make them even better than superb" and this ofcourse to which point;


    It all comes down to a very simple conclusion.You know what sound you want;You even have the amps you like;Or some one you know has them;Fine.Make an exact copy or search for other exact copies of the same amp-model BUT with a different sound you also like for them yourself and say a friendly "no thanks" to anyone you gives you less than this.


  • You're spot on. The one thing I'd like to add, and it's something that isn't brought up in Kemper circles that much, is that, once you profile an amp, download a profile, buy one, whatever, you can then tweak the hell out of it. You can make your heavily-overdriven Randall Satan sound like a modernized Fender Deluxe. You can overdrive a Vox far past the normal range a Vox AC-30 TB would give you.


    The Line 6 stuff is more "closed gate," where they're trying to provide you an amp that mimics a classic sound. Sometimes they nail it. Sometimes they don't. It just depends on the sound you're after. However, if you want to shape it's sound, output, compression, etc., you have to do so with effects. It's not the same thing, and you don't end up with the same results and quality as you would with the KPA or the AxeFX (yes, I'm bringing that into the circle, because you can do a lot of the same with their amp models). But, this is the nature of Line 6's modeling solution - you get what you get, it's simple, and it's beautiful. Up until the Helix, it was the "good sounding budget option."


    I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm really interested to see how the Helix performs. They're pricing it as a direct competitor of the Kemper and AxeFX. And, being on the Kemper forums, I'm sure we will all say it sounds the best (because, well, it does!), but it also comes down to how people take it in. If it sounds 90% as good as the Kemper, but it's easier to manage, software is available for patch management and MIDI assignments, etc.... it's going to be hard to convince new users to buy Kemper over the Helix. The AxeFX, as a competitor, is already pretty stiff competition, but if you're already used to using floorboards like the HD500X or the XT Live or X3 Live, and you can get a Helix at your local Guitar Center for $500 less than a rack-mount or head unit with an in-store warranty, why would you even consider the KPA and AxeFX?


    Rant over.

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack

  • Personally I find just the overdriven amp tone often gives me amazing tones.


    I had so many drive pedals last year. Klon KTR, OCD, Big Muff, Tubescreamer, Fuzz Factory, Fuzz Face, and more.


    I've only kept the Klon (mainly because it was a birthday gift, and because it might appreciate) and the OCD because it's my favourite all time overdrive, the rest are gone. I've not delved into the fuzz tones yet, but I'll get there.


    On topic: I don't think I'm going to bother with the Helix. I am officially off the GAS train, for now...

  • dougc84 you say: ''If it sounds 90% as good as the Kemper...'' but what happen if the 10% missing is the part I prefer? ;)


    BTW, looking at the list of your gears I doubt you would really appreciate this 10% of tone missing. I personnaly wouldn't, especially in the amp tone department.

  • dougc84 you say: ''If it sounds 90% as good as the Kemper...'' but what happen if the 10% missing is the part I prefer? ;)


    BTW, looking at the list of your gears I doubt you would really appreciate this 10% of tone missing. I personnaly wouldn't, especially in the amp tone department.


    I completely agree.


    In my experience with many (MANY) digital modelers over the years, that missing "10%" usually are some of the most critically important components of the tube amplifier <==> guitarist equation...such as:

    • feedback and response to the guitarist's playing dynamics
    • natural sustain with natural decay of notes (no perceivable aliasing and artifacts)
    • ability to reduce gain and clean up wonderfully with lowering of guitar's volume pot
    • tube sag -- almost impossible to convey in words, but you know it and can't mistake when you have played enough cranked tube amps.
    • ability to duplicate the low/med to medium (including "crunch") gain range of tube amplifiers -- notoriously difficult for other digital modelers
    • that wonderful note "bloom" -- another one of those hard to define terms, but "you know it when you see it".


    IMHO, the KPA is not missing that final 10%. I honestly could not tell the difference between the actual reference amp, and the profiled amp, in a couple of blind A/B comparison sessions that I participated in, using 5 different tube amps (2 of which were my own). My inability to accurately differentiate between the reference amp and the profiled amp, was in no small part due to the marvelous fidelity by which the KPA to duplicates these subtle (but oh so important) characteristics. In fact, these were the key factors in my decision to purchase a Kemper of my own.

    Edited 3 times, last by Tritium ().

  • Quote

    No.It is not.And nothing could be more far away from the reality then this.


    LOL well, that is a little intense. Did you read the rest of my post? I'm not even sure we disagree on much, excepting the relevance of the "P" word. I'm just going to call them all emulators from now on, as a matter of principle.


    I am amused and duly reminded that trying to talk about actual technology on a fan forum is basically like tilting at windmills. :D

  • For me it is how the amp or modeler presents the transients in a euphoricaly musical way. Kemper does this just as my tube amps. The first time I heard the Kemper do this I was in love. The honey moon was a long one. And then there is the feel of how the tone, pick and string interact...the Helix is beautiful but will it do these things?

  • LOL well, that is a little intense. Did you read the rest of my post? I'm not even sure we disagree on much, excepting the relevance of the "P" word. I'm just going to call them all emulators from now on, as a matter of principle.


    I am amused and duly reminded that trying to talk about actual technology on a fan forum is basically like tilting at windmills. :D


    It was not my intention to be "intensive" at all.I just tried to reject what in my view must be rejected.When you say that modeling (after 20 years of its existance) is not "inferior" to profiling and that the "future is wide open" also to modeling I have to reject this.Modeling IS far inferior to profiling.Actually I believe that the "era of modeling" is over.Profiling IS the future.And this is the reason why Fractal introduced "tone matching" and Line 6 talks about "profiling each single stage" of the signal path.What bollocks.All of these companies have a clear strategy how to use which technology.All of these are first of all modelers.But only the KPA is concipated from the scratch as such;A profiler.I just wanted to make this clear.And I believe that I have do to this because these are the facts.

  • dougc84 you say: ''If it sounds 90% as good as the Kemper...'' but what happen if the 10% missing is the part I prefer? ;)


    BTW, looking at the list of your gears I doubt you would really appreciate this 10% of tone missing. I personnaly wouldn't, especially in the amp tone department.


    Oh, I certainly would miss that 10% now that I jumped ship to Kemper. The primary reason I switched from using a Line 6 X3 Live to a rack setup was purely tone-based. There are things the Kemper misses, sure, but the main thing it's for is amp profiles, and it does it right.


    Line 6 always got me really good sounds, but I stuck to the amp models they did well - primarily clean ones (Vox's, Fenders, etc.), and used real analog pedals to overdrive the signal. I ended up setting the X3 to an AC-15/AC-30 dual path, and just left it there. I only used the X3 for amp modeling, and didn't even change presets. It was basically a huge volume pedal. Again, I got some good sounds, but secondarily to wanting amazing tone was having the flexibility to explore and expand my tonal arsenal. With the Line 6, I was stuck. I couldn't go forward, and I couldn't build out the sounds I needed for particular gigs.


    The Kemper gives me the flexibility to pull up a profile of an amp I would have used a model of on the X3 and get a similar sound to what I had before. The difference is I LOVE the tone I get now. I just really liked it before. It's much more real and interactive, and it feels like I'm playing through a stack, not a $500 all-in-one.. And it gives me the option to explore other amp options that were absolute trash or didn't exist on the Line 6. I can pull up a JCM profile when I want that particular sound, a rare vintage Fender, or a Bogner Shiva, and I'm not disappointed by any of them. And then I can drive it harder with a real overdrive pedal and add the delays and reverbs I've spent so much time crafting to get right.


    If I plugged in my X3 right now and started playing through it, I would definitely have some very usable sounds. But usable and good is not spectacular, and that's what the Kemper gives me - spectacular. So, yes, I would certainly miss than 10% now that I've joined the Kemper bandwagon!

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack


  • I've been there too bro. I used a lot of Line 6 products in the past because it was simple and versatile rigs to carry. But when I wanted the real fun I used my tube amp rig. The real fun can be measure at about 10% but soooo important 10% for me. With the Kemper I don't feel the need for a tube rig to have that fun! :)


    Now, will Line 6 deliver this 10% with their Helix? I doubt, but it surely be a lot cooler rig to use than their predecessors!


    Of course I speak about amp tones not FXs and interface features which seems to be where Line 6 putted the most of their energy in the development of the Helix.

  • The thing I like about the whole premise of the Helix is that one of the bigger companies is finally aiming their sights the Kemper/Axe FX portion of the market - the more 'high end' digital gear.


    From what I've heard so far they'll line up behind those two in terms of sound quality but the interface and routing options seem impressive. It's already being marketed to high heaven and I'm sure it'll sell well.


    Hopefully that will mean more R&D into this area of the market place. So in a few years time we could have a real hard decision choosing between a Helix 2, Axe FX 3, and er... the Original Kemper ;)

    Suhr Classic Pro, Fender deluxe Strat & Baja Tele, Gibson ES335, Ibanez S Prestige 2170FW, Eastman AR371CE, Variax JTV > KPA > Patch bay inc. Strymons (Mobius, Timeline, Blue Sky), H9 Max, TC Triple Delay, & POD HD500 > Adam A7Xs

  • The thing I like about the whole premise of the Helix is that one of the bigger companies is finally aiming their sights the Kemper/Axe FX portion of the market - the more 'high end' digital gear.


    From what I've heard so far they'll line up behind those two in terms of sound quality but the interface and routing options seem impressive. It's already being marketed to high heaven and I'm sure it'll sell well.


    Hopefully that will mean more R&D into this area of the market place. So in a few years time we could have a real hard decision choosing between a Helix 2, Axe FX 3, and er... the Original Kemper ;)

    I'm not so sure about your assessment. More than 10 years ago when Line 6 released the Vetta and Vetta 2 they were aiming on the highend market. The rest is history: a very long time period of re-using the very same
    technology in several versions of different devices followed without any further improvements.

  • I know the Helix's supposedly been in development for years but it's a funny coincidence that L6 seems to have openly stepped up their game just when Yammie entered the picture...

    I'm just trying to be as truthful to my experience and personal opinion that I'm clearly presenting only as a personal opinion no more no less in an honest and truthful discussion about equipment.