Andertons Helix Vid

  • Fact is that we are all guitarists and we just discuss about gears. We are not gears.


    Gears are just tools that we use. Some will prefer one over the other for different personnal reasons and that is nice to express your opinion as long as it doesn't become an ego battle.


    Now, some well advised opinions will come soon once some of us will finally try the thing. For the moment the Helix is still in its marketing phase and Line 6 has always been very good to this game!

  • I for one cannot understand that people get this defensive and heated over a device that's not even available.
    Also the discussion about the whole terminology doesn't lead anywhere.


    I will also add that I've always enjoyed @mbenigni 's rationale about his needs and what the Kemper misses (in his opinion) although I don't necessarily always agree with him.
    My perception in this thread is he got quite some unnecessary flak by @Nikos, and this for no reason.


    I think this forum can do better than that.

  • Maybe one has to read the whole thread;Anyway.I am not a laywer nor a politician.Neither I care about "semantics" in music.I have my opinion,and wrote about it.


    I was already out of the duscussion here after some user accused me to being "intense","putting words into his mouth","schooling" him,"being tiresome" and in the end "bizarre"..


    Dont know if this is a good style of discussion.But in any case this discussion is not something I like to continue.


    Greetings.

  • Getting back to topic. The video doesn't tell the whole story. When this is released and it gets in the hands of users, I wouldn't be surprised to hear terrific recordings. Line 6 have brilliant engineers like the rest of other guitar companies, Digitech, Zoom etc. Even POD 2.0 is on more records that we can imagine regardless of quality and from what I can hear so far, the effects in Helix Sound incredible.


    Guitar player/musicians will make due with whatever gear they have so I don't think it's wise to dismiss anything because every piece of gear can provide a solution to someone at some point in time.


    Santana in Woodstock used a Solid State amp that he didn't like "Gallien- Kruger" because it projected and it was loud. His performance was probably one of his best using an amp he didn't like because he realized the problem and found the right tool to provide the solution.


    Helix provides a lot of solutions to many. The controller alone. which is part of the Helix, seems to be light years ahead of any controller out there. It might take you less than five minutes to customize it to control the Profiler or AXE FX or any device that uses MIDI with customizable scribble strips ; individual display for each effect as you chose for Text, your delay or reverb can be red, blue , yellow or whatever.


    You can use a small tube amp as a stage monitor and hook it up to helix and use its internal Impulses (or load external impulses) and send a perfect mix to the FOH while using one of its 4 signal paths for effects rerouted to another signal path before the impulse response or after or any way you like. You can have a bass player a keyboard player while your connecting your guitar all using the Helix a the same time..


    I think it provides a lot of solutions and I'm betting it will be a huge hit for line 6. I'm hoping later they will release cheaper version that I would buy for the effects as I'm currently set with my Kemper.

    Edited once, last by Dean_R ().

  • Getting back to topic. The video doesn't tell the whole story. When this is released and it gets in the hands of users, I wouldn't be surprised to hear terrific recordings. Line 6 have brilliant engineers like the rest of other guitar companies, Digitech, Zoom etc. Even POD 2.0 is on more records that we can imagine regardless of quality .


    Don't want to be negative here but you seem to be making statements without anything to back them up. I'd be surprised if the POD 2.0 made it on to any records of note. It was a great tool at the time but compared to a decent tube amp - no way.


    Digitech and Zoom may have brilliant engineers but their multi FX units have always suffered tone wise from poor ad/da conversion and brittle sounding models.


    The Kemper is the first amp modeller which sounds anywhere near the real thing for me in terms of dynamics, feel and tone. It just sounds natural.


    The Helix looks like a very functional piece of kit. I am very tempted by it and no one is saying that it doesn't provide a lot of solutions. But at that price compared to the Kemper I expected it to sound a lot better in the demos.


  • Thank you for taking the time to respond, mbenigni, and in such a gentlemanly fashion at that. I very much appreciate it, mate, as I do your willingness to admit the frustration you felt that saw your resorting to having a little dabble with hyperbole in employing the "fan-forum" description.


    Unsurprisingly, I agree with all your comments.


    I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you again; the same excuse applies. Hopefully health will pick up a little now that our coldest winter in decades is on its way out. I can't afford to run heating as every cent I can muster goes towards music gear.


    Thank you again, bud. Go you good thing.
    Nicky


    Man, mbenigni, you're levelheaded almost to a fault. :D


    Apart from selling the Kemper (that one I can't rationalize 8| ), your posts on this and other forums pretty much mirror my thoughts on the matter.
    Keep it up, bud! I honestly can't wait to read your thoughts on Helix once you've had it for a few months. Don't you dare forget posting them here as well!


    I concur.


    Bring that review on, mbenigni!


  • Don't want to be negative here but you seem to be making statements without anything to back them up. I'd be surprised if the POD 2.0 made it on to any records of note. It was a great tool at the time but compared to a decent tube amp - no way.
    .


    You say "any record of note" so for now the only name that I can think of is Pete Anderson "multi-platinum, Grammy Award-winning producer and groundbreaking guitarist, who melds blues and country to forge a style all his own."
    Hre's a link
    http://www.premierguitar.com/a…rig-rundown-pete-anderson
    Bands who used PODs live onstage included big names like "Megadeath,Incantation, etc.


    Digitech and Zoom may have brilliant engineers but their multi FX units have always suffered tone wise from poor ad/da conversion and brittle sounding models.
    .


    David Gilmour from Pink floyd used Zoom effects on two songs in the "Division Bell" Album and many professional guitarists use zoom products everyday.
    Digitech gsp2101 was probably on every or every other record (that had guitar in it) that was made after it was released for good many years.


    The Kemper is the first amp modeller which sounds anywhere near the real thing for me in terms of dynamics, feel and tone. It just sounds natural.


    The Helix looks like a very functional piece of kit. I am very tempted by it and no one is saying that it doesn't provide a lot of solutions. But at that price compared to the Kemper I expected it to sound a lot better in the demos.


    Natural might not always be desired. Eleven Rack and POD HDs can sound very close to how a real amp sound, Eleven Rack has a lot of dynamic and feel. In the right hands and in a mix, it would be impossible to tell them apart from a real tube amp, I love my KPA but I don't dismiss any piece of gear even though I know the KPA is the best in regard to sound quality and feel.


    I agree with you on expecting it to sound better in the demo, but keep in mind that this video was made with three guitarist changing parameters on the fly. I bet that if one guitarist sat for a few hours and made patches then made a video, the quality of the sound would have been much better. I'm actually quite surprised that line 6 hasn't produced more thought out videos yet. I know they released a few but not enough in my opinion and this Adnderton Video, just like all Anderton Videos, is fun to watch but is never good if used for judging whether to buy a piece of gear or not.

  • According to this thread, an XTC and a Pretenders release were done with just Pods (and, there are other artists mentioned in the thread)


    http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad…ous-pod-albums-users.html


    This. And very special thanks Paul for mentioning XTC! ;)

  • On a side note, I am pretty sure that a device which responds like a tube amp is not always needed in each and every recordings, as Dean was pointing out. Sometimes the perfect result is achieved with a more "synthetic" (?) sound, depending on the mix.
    Another thing that comes to my mind: the most spent sentences on guitar-related forums when a new digital device is presented and clips are commented include "the clip sounds good, but you have to play it in person to really see if it feels good" and "it's easy to sound god in a mix... but you have to feel it under your fingers".
    Now, if we assume for a moment that there certainly is at least some guitarist skilled enough to play good even if the feel of the device is not tubey, we can easily infer that every digital device might sound good in a professional recording, if only the player is not distracted by how it feels.
    Hope this makes sense

  • Dean - I am talking about Amp Modelling - not FX. I am sure Gilmour did use some zoom and digitech FX (hey the fx are pretty respectable I am sure) - but I doubt he used the amp modelling.


    My point is that Line 6, Zoom and Digitech amp modelling is not widely used on commercial recordings - certainly not as widespread as you appeared to be implying at first. I have no idea who Pete Anderson is but if he got a good recorded sound out of a Pod 2 then good on him.


    I find whenever anyone used to endorse a Pod they used to use it for 'demos and live'. Recordings? The real deal. At least the bands I respect. Go back to classic albums - Radiohead, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, the Pixies, Sonic Youth, The Beatles, Bowie, Smashing Pumpkins I could go on. Pod? Come on, they don't use them. Weezer used a Pod live but they went to real amps in the studio.


    I am not an anti digital person at all. Digital reverbs and delays have historically sounded great. But when it comes to amp modelling, not until the Kemper have I been happy. I was using a Sansamp before - which is analog.


    I find that the reason most people use L6 pods is for convenience - they are great for that - but they are a compromise. People already butcher music by listening to it on laptop speakers with poor quality bitrate streams. If the recordings are digital fizz in the first place then it just makes things worse.


    The Eleven Rack was pretty good - almost there - but not quite.

  • On a side note, I am pretty sure that a device which responds like a tube amp is not always needed in each and every recordings, as Dean was pointing out. Sometimes the perfect result is achieved with a more "synthetic" (?) sound, depending on the mix.
    Another thing that comes to my mind: the most spent sentences on guitar-related forums when a new digital device is presented and clips are commented include "the clip sounds good, but you have to play it in person to really see if it feels good" and "it's easy to sound god in a mix... but you have to feel it under your fingers".
    Now, if we assume for a moment that there certainly is at least some guitarist skilled enough to play good even if the feel of the device is not tubey, we can easily infer that every digital device might sound good in a professional recording, if only the player is not distracted by how it feels.
    Hope this makes sense


    Certainly does make sense. With respect I am talking about realistic amp tones - synthetic tones - yes you can probably coax them out of any modeller.


    Your point about feel is an interesting one - personally I never understood this 'feel' people would talk about with tube amps. I never really got to play much of the one tube amp I owned because it was so loud. My focus was always on the recorded sound. I found the POD didn't stack well. It just sounded harsh and unnatural. My Sansamp was much better at stacking.


    The Kemper does feel good to play though - that spongeyness I remember from my Fender tube amp is there.

  • Meshuggah switched from Dual Rectifiers to Pod XTs and now use Axe FX 2 and used a vst amp sim to record their last album. Misha Mansoor recorded the demos that led to Periphery by using a Pod XT.


    Demos typically sound way better using a Pod than a crappy studio or even crap mics in a garage. I definitely prefer the KPA or real amps tone, but the Pod isnt crap

  • I am talking about realistic amp tones - synthetic tones - yes you can probably coax them out of any modeller.


    Well, I guess my point is that there's no "squared step" between realistic tones and "fake" ones, but you'll find a continuity of literally thousands different tones that fit certain mixes more than others. I would not say it's a matter of tones being realistic or not at all.


    Also, let's not underestimate what any soundman does: tweaking the original signal for the mix. I am sure a skilled engineer can make many tones sound great in a mix.


    PS: Not sure myself abut the feel, but many swear about it so it must be true for someone.


    :)

  • I'm not sure where I read the tube amps respond with slight delay(in 1ms or something less) which makes Solid state amps the preferred weapon of choice for some metal players because they have instant response for fast palying; Pantera's Late Dim Bag Darrel and few other that I can't think of right now. In many Marshall amps the distortion is generated using solid states components, equivalent to adding a RAT in the preamp Stage.


    The feel is the main reason why I bought the Kemper. My understanding of what people refer to as feel is finger responsiveness. Being able to get many different sounds depending on how soft or hard you pick or finger the string is the main desirable characteristics of what player love about tube amps. The range of expression is what separate a good modeler from the basic ones. I don't want to play a modeler that will sound the same regardless of how hard, soft , or gently I caress the strings. It's good to be inspired when playing, so even though almost many modelers can be made to sound the same, not all of them are equally inspiring . Recorded in a Mix they do sound very similar but to get more expression, you really need the KPA because no modeler duplicates the feel of tube amps like the KPA.

    Edited 2 times, last by Dean_R ().

  • My understanding of what people refer to as feel is finger responsiveness. Being able to get many different sounds depending on how soft or hard you pick or finger the string is the main desirable characteristics of what player love about tube amps. The range of expression is what separate a good modeler from the basic ones. I don't want to play a modeler that will sound the same regardless of how hard, soft , or gently I caress the strings.


    This definitely reminds me of the Pandora... the less responsive entity I've interacted with in my life LOL
    Jesus, it responded like a sampler on a 10 € keyboard :P


    PS: You might be onto something with your interpretation of "feel". Will definitely buy your definition, which definitely fills a hole in my knowledge XD

  • Feel is a subjective term which means something different to different people. I don't think anyone can capture such a subjective term and make it into an objective parameter.


    Responsiveness is something that is tangible. Maybe they're the same thing.