About this cocked wah/autowah/muddy/blanket on speaker tone on some profiles

  • Hi! I hope this is in the correct place, and I hope you will understand at least a little what I'm talking about because I am not a native English speaker and not very informed or able musician, yet.


    I've had my Kemper for about eight months now and I'm a little sad because I'm beginning to believe it is the only guitar amplifier I'll ever need and there's so many cool amps to buy and have... but there's this one thing that bugs me, this "wah" type thing in some profiles. I've read people talking about it and while I really don't know what it should be called I've understood that lowering amp definition parameter will help with that, and it usually will more or less. But I'd like to know why this is happening, I'd guess it's probably a thing with miking because it can be heard on some records too. A good example is this Green Day part at 2.04


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    and generally probably the whole Kerplunk record. I've heard it on some AC/DC live recordings too. It's this autowah thing when guitar is strummed and when the sound is muted, gives me some kinda old Line6 or "digital" feel which I don't think real amp counterparts at least in so called "amp in the room" situations will do. Can somebody explain to me what is this thing and are profiles sounding like that generally badly made or are these things "curable" with EQ?


    While we are at it I've found out that usually those wahey sounding profiles are very "blanket on the speaker" or muddy sounding. Do I make any sense when I say that most profiles I feel are like this sound much better when adding presence or is it in my head? While presence as the whole word says should add presence and live feeling, am I correct to think that guitars in the mix, while of course lacking bass and vocal and whatever frequencies, are generally more less presencey? Then of course the tone I'm after while playing alone should have more treble and presence? I just mean that if most of the commercial profilers are making profiles for recording with a band they could be less "present"? I want to mention that TAF profiles don't suffer from these problems, they deserve all the praise they can get! :thumbup:


    I really can't tell how my tastes in guitar tones of my own messing go because I lack comparison here with not much people to even talk about this stuff. But if you compare that Green Day thing to for example this Bogner Helios


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    which is probably my favourite tone right now, or think about Slash for example, those tones are pretty edgy and bitey and have lots of presence, not muddy or dull at all, or with wahs.


    I'm sorry for the long rambling, I hope I made some sense. Be welcome to suggest me some badass present "Ultimate Plexi" profiles too, Young brothers, Van Halen, Steve Stevens, George Lynch, Billy Gibbons, Joe Bonamassa etc. style tones without any autowahs or blankets on.




    Thank you very much


    Joe :thumbup:

  • what you want is a parameter called 'Pure Cabinet' in the OUTPUT section.
    it's an adaptive parameter that removes tonal problems that occur when close micing a speaker.


    also, to give a cab more bandwidth, try lowering the Low Shift in the CABINET section by a bit (-0.3? -0.5?) and/or turning up High Shift for a similar amount.


    but mainly Pure Cab.

  • Hi JoeR,


    First off, your message is clear, better than many native English speaking posters.


    The sound you describe is an eq effect that boosts frequencies around 1kHz while reducing all the other frequencies above and below it. If you google "Telephone eq" or "telephone effect" you can see the eq curves people use to create these tones. The actual value of the peak can vary, as can the width or Q. It is basically a mid pass filter (it allows middle frequencies to pass, but stops others). I think this is how a wah pedal works as well (except the peak frequency moves up and down as you move your foot), so your description is good.


    If you have a profile that has this tone, and you don't like it, the first thing I would do is look for a new profile. There are many "full range" tones out there, and trying to get the frequencies back that have been removed is challenging at best. If it's only a slight effect, you can load up an eq stomp after the stack and boost the lows and highs while reducing the mids, but finding the boosted frequency is time consuming, and fixing it is even more time consuming, and the results may still not be all that great.


    It is very perceptive of you to notice that guitarist in a band (or in a mix) sometimes like their tone mid-rangey. It's because they want to occupy their part in the sonic landscape, and not interfere with the low frequency instruments (bass guitar, bass drums) or the high frequency instruments (cymbals). When you are playing alone, you don't need to worry about standing out, so you can use a more broad range of tone.


    Some commercial profile authors offer both regular studio profiles of an amp, and also what they call "mix ready" profiles. I think the latter refers to some sculpting they do to the tone so the guitar doesn't collide with the other band instruments. I would assume that the rig exchange authors make both types also (and probably everything in between) since some folks play in a band or mix, and some just like to noodle on the couch with a profile of their favorite classic amp.

  • Good (in)formative post DB! :)


    Joe, I just want to add that what sounds good when you play alone might not (and usually doesn't) sounds good in a band. Google for some guitar "isolated tracks" from famous rock songs, and you'll hear how harsh and unpleasant they usually sound by themselves.


    :)

  • I recently bought a ton of profiles from a particular commercial profile seller and I was very disappointed to hear many of them are unusable (to me anyway) due to that "cocked wah" tone to which you are referring. I'm not sure what purpose that particular tone setting serves, but then again to someone else it might sound just fine. It's all a matter of taste.


    Note, this is with PureCab on about 5.0 and I have been unable to dial out that nasally EQ no matter what I try.


    In hindsight these might be good profiles for lead work where you REALLY need to cut through a heavy mix. These are very high gain profiles so perhaps these are meant to work in that particular setting.


    I wouldn't know, I haven't played metal since 1995. :P

    Husband, Father, Pajama Enthusiast

  • what you want is a parameter called 'Pure Cabinet' in the OUTPUT section.
    it's an adaptive parameter that removes tonal problems that occur when close micing a speaker.


    also, to give a cab more bandwidth, try lowering the Low Shift in the CABINET section by a bit (-0.3? -0.5?) and/or turning up High Shift for a similar amount.


    but mainly Pure Cab.


    I figured he was referring to the phasiness that a cocked-wah bump induces, an unwanted characteristic related to poor mic'ing technique, so I agree 100% with you, Don.


    The OP, I'm guessing, may have come to his conclusion after surfing the RE a whole lot, where much of this phenomenon can be heard, IMHO.

  • Thank you all very much for the help and tips! I'm very sorry I haven't replied earlier, I didn't have a chance to try things for a long time and then I actually forgot this thread for a while. Adding presence, that low shift / high shift thing and lowering definition all work nicely, some better with some profiles and some not that much with some profiles. I like that pure cabinet thing too, thanks for telling me about it! But yeah, some profiles are just not that good sounding to me but luckily there usually are more profiles from the exact same amp or a different one with eq settings better suited to my taste. Thank you again and Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas or whatever it is you are celebrating!


    Joe :)

  • after re-reading your observations I have to ask you about your monitoring situation. Could it be your room/speakers/speaker placements (directly on a hard surface) is influencing/exaggerating a certain part of the midrange?
    do you have heard what you describe on different systems/in different rooms?

  • Interesting thread.


    I've been experimenting a lot the last few sessions. For a specific song I was looking for a specific sound, without copying the original (this is a cover). Where other profiles in other songs work amazing, I just could not get it right. Tried all kind of things, EQ, more/less gain, pure cab, etc, etc. Then I remembered that I had a similar sound on my last solo album. So I opened the master track for that song to check the sound isolated. It sounded fairly harsh and with a little bandwidth somehow. BUT it sat perfectly in a rather busy mix. I was thinking that if I would listen to a Kemper profile solo'd like that, I'd most likely skip it immediately. My old sound was recorded the old way btw, so with 2 mics.


    So I decided to try a Kemper Profile of the same pre-amp I used with that song (a Marshall JMP1). The moment I loaded this profile the guitars sat perfectly! So, even though an isolated sound can sound aweful, in a mix it might work. It's almost like the Kemper sounds are too good, have too big a bandwidth sometimes. And the profile I initially used was a Soldano, so basically a Marshall on sterroids, but still it just didn't work in this song.


    A real eye opener for me, this example. A good thing I recorded the dry signal too, BTW ;)

  • In the short time I've been using it, I've found that, for me there is a difference between profiles that sound great at gig volume and those that are record ready. The gig profiles sound duller at low volumes whilst the brighter ones with more prescence will take your head off on the gig. I set up a bright lead sound from my headphones and had to change it back to a duller one as soon as I turned it up so maybe it's horses for courses. The geezer on the Bogner video sounds great although I think I've been able to coax tones really close to that from the KPA.

    A brace of Suhrs, a Charvel, a toaster, an Apollo twin, a Mac, and a DXR10

  • Good (in)formative post DB! :)


    Joe, I just want to add that what sounds good when you play alone might not (and usually doesn't) sounds good in a band. Google for some guitar "isolated tracks" from famous rock songs, and you'll hear how harsh and unpleasant they usually sound by themselves.


    :)


    definitely right! you can hear the same that Gianfranco mentioned with drums and other instruments. I was very surprised by hearing dream theater images and words drums which I thouhgt to be the best ever. Isolated is very identical on every beat of the drummer. of course, mixed is incredible. same thing for the guitar: some tones are fine when played alone but nasty in the mix while other are terrible alone but invincible with other instruments.


    overall I can say that the search for the tone is a complex one. It won't happen just plugging and playing. And to be honest, it wouldn't be fair. People like Van Halen, Steve Vai, and so on have devoted literaly decades to find theirs which fitted their hands. Is it fair that someone plugs his guitar and there he has it? :)

    "...why being satisfied with an amp, as great as it can be, while you can have them all?" michael mellner


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  • t's almost like the Kemper sounds are too good, have too big a bandwidth sometimes.


    mhhh... I think that even a real amp would have sounded "too much" in that context. I believe it all comes to what we prefer when we play alone. In fact, we tend to disregard the rigs that sound like a recorded track, when we audition them ;)

  • mhhh... I think that even a real amp would have sounded "too much" in that context. I believe it all comes to what we prefer when we play alone. In fact, we tend to disregard the rigs that sound like a recorded track, when we audition them ;)


    It's odd how we perceive sounds. Lesson I learned is to not disregard a amp I listen to solo, but to always check it in the context of a song/band.


  • In the short time I've been using it, I've found that, for me there is a difference between profiles that sound great at gig volume and those that are record ready. The gig profiles sound duller at low volumes whilst the brighter ones with more prescence will take your head off on the gig. I set up a bright lead sound from my headphones and had to change it back to a duller one as soon as I turned it up so maybe it's horses for courses. The geezer on the Bogner video sounds great although I think I've been able to coax tones really close to that from the KPA.


    definitely right! you can hear the same that Gianfranco mentioned with drums and other instruments. I was very surprised by hearing dream theater images and words drums which I thouhgt to be the best ever. Isolated is very identical on every beat of the drummer. of course, mixed is incredible. same thing for the guitar: some tones are fine when played alone but nasty in the mix while other are terrible alone but invincible with other instruments.


    overall I can say that the search for the tone is a complex one. It won't happen just plugging and playing. And to be honest, it wouldn't be fair. People like Van Halen, Steve Vai, and so on have devoted literaly decades to find theirs which fitted their hands. Is it fair that someone plugs his guitar and there he has it? :)


    These and other recent comments will hopefully serve to guide those who're unaware just how much their favourite "big" sounds may require bandwidth-limiting EQ, and quite likely a lot of it, in order for space on the audible frequency spectrum to be made for all other elements of a mix.


    As for Morph's comment, it demonstrates that high-end definition helps us perceive low-level signals, but that once levels rise sufficiently, such assistance is not required... unless you wanna blow your head off.