Improved Overdrive Stomp Options


  • If there's enough demand and willingness on the programmers side, it can be done much easier than you think.


    There are always possibilities.


    A way to do it would be to have the option of running two different firmware , one would be the usual that we all know and another one would for the pure guitar tone with no effects, just profiling.


    I don't think you understand how firmware works. You can equate firmware to your operating system on your computer. Sure, you can dual boot, say, OS X and Windows (or Linux or whatever). Or load just one or the other on a machine. But you're getting Firmware and DSP/Processor power and performance confused.


    The firmware on the Kemper is very small. 3.2.1 was 7.5 MB (8.3 GB archive also contained other files, kaos.bin was only 7.5). Reducing that to, say, 10% of the original size, yields a .75 MB (or 750KB) OS. This does nothing for the processing power of the DSP chip. It may take up a slight amount more memory on the larger version, but the variable in question is not your volatile RAM memory, but the CPU, or the DSP chip. In any case, when the front input of the Kemper receives sound, it has to be passed through one or more filters (your Amp, Cab, EQ, Stomps, Effects, Headphone Space, etc.). The most processor-intensive is the Amp block, as it's basically recreating the amp on the fly.


    Unless you want to get to a Fractal-degree of performance monitoring where you have to monitor the Kemper's CPU and adjust quality to fit the need of a particular rig, you're never going to be able to profile stomps, at least not on the current hardware. ckemper has already mentioned this elsewhere, that the processor is not capable of handling it.


    This would make things more complex to manage for the user... Kemper has proven in the year to favour simplicity and straightforwardness.
    Furthermore, running a profile and one or more profiled stomps would mean to run n profiles in parallel: you can bet, if the possibility to use one profiled stomp was ever offered, many would ask for more slots... people are simply never content :D


    Just like saved effects/saved stomps/snapshots/backups/cabinets are "simple" and "straightforward" to manage? I'm sorry, but the Kemper is not a leader when it comes to UI, simplicity, or straightforwardness. They do have the upper hand over, say, Fractal, but Fractal also offers a bazillion more configuration options than the Kemper does.


    The Kemper does, in most cases, feel like a tube amp. And that's a problem, because it's not a tube amp; it just sounds like one. There are people that want a great amp sound and nothing more, afraid to tweak and dial in things, and balk at the slightest degree of complexity, software upgrades, added features, or the need to read a manual, just like most tube amp owners - a gain, volume, and three tone knobs should be ample for most of these people, and it shouldn't change. For others, the fans of the digital revolution in music, they want to tweak, control, and manage all the features and functionality they can, don't mind spending some time understanding the difference between two similarly-named parameters, and have a native understanding of how UI design should act, feel, and work. Regardless of whichever way you approach it, it's still a digital amp - a computer, and Kemper's trying to appeal to both audiences. If it's not managed properly, then it's going to be left by the wayside, as are, for instance, stomp group presets. But, rest assured, this is not a thing that will happen, because ckemper has stated the Kemper simply doesn't have enough DSP to handle this type of process. In any case, it certainly wouldn't be difficult to manage (it would be easier to manage than rigs), and, if it were added and you felt it to be "too much," then simply don't use it or don't upgrade.

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack


  • [quote='dougc84','http://www.kemper-amps.com/forum/index.php/Thread/26574-Improved-Overdrive-Stomp-Options/?postID=276731#post276731']
    I don't think you understand how firmware works. You can equate firmware to your operating system on your computer. Sure, you can dual boot, say, OS X and Windows (or Linux or whatever). Or load just one or the other on a machine. But you're getting Firmware and DSP/Processor power and performance confused.


    I'm not confusing Firmware and DSP processor performance. All I was saying if the other firmware has no effects (Effects use DSP) there might be enough to run another profile of drives/Distortions and maybe another AMP profile. Getting rid of Harmonizers, Graphic/Par EQ, Reverbs, Delay, Chorus and all the other effects would leave enough DSP for a stomp profile, don't you think?


    Sure the AMP block is the most intensive, but my guess it's at percentage of total DSP that would still allow for another Profile at least of stomp if no other effects are there. As far as I can see, the DSP isn't even completely tapped out, there's a current update coming out in few days that probably will utilize some of that available DSP or maybe make things efficient that little or no more is needed.

    Edited 2 times, last by Dean_R ().

  • Just like saved effects/saved stomps/snapshots/backups/cabinets are "simple" and "straightforward" to manage? I'm sorry, but the Kemper is not a leader when it comes to UI, simplicity, or straightforwardness.


    I see where you're coming from, but believe me what Dean is suggesting is what Kemper would call "not simple".
    I'd not confuse richness of functions with complexity, and TBH the Profiler seems very simple to me once you know what the knobs do. On other devices (even outside the music world) I find myself in the need of going back to the manual more often than I'd like. With the Profiler, I only recur to the manuals when I want to learn something I have nor yet used, which tells (me) a lot :)

  • This would add huge value and selling point to the KPA for all of those who will first ask, well how are the dirt boxes? The answer is always the least selling feature in the KPA, Let's be honest, Line 6 drives are simply better than those in the KPA but again, we didn't buy the KPA for the drives that it has.


    I see you point, but then the best solution would be IMO to simply rewrite the software, since none of the best digital modellers around are profiled.
    Don't take me wrong, I'd appreciate if the Profiler allowed to profile OD stomps. I don't think its current incarnation can deal with interpreting more than 1 profile per time, let alone n tho.


    :)

  • Man I would love some stomps based on ESPECIALLY a klon ( my all time favorite lead boost period), and maybe some other pedals like the box of rock, EP SL drive( for using on clean amps and giving that vibe) and last but not least, a Timmy. Sure it's just a really transparent overdrive, but that pedals EQ contribution is just about the best thing about it. Having its low and high knobs on the pedal stomp just like on the real pedal would be absolutely fantastic, you can do anything with the timmys EQ, it really is fantastic at being an EQ for your entire sitnal chain while being musical and esay to use.

  • I'm not going to respond any further to any posts regarding "profiling stomps," since it's a pipe dream at this stage, as ckemper himself has mentioned it's not possible with the current DSP. Agree to disagree on many points.


    Man I would love some stomps based on ESPECIALLY a klon ( my all time favorite lead boost period), and maybe some other pedals like the box of rock, EP SL drive( for using on clean amps and giving that vibe) and last but not least, a Timmy. Sure it's just a really transparent overdrive, but that pedals EQ contribution is just about the best thing about it. Having its low and high knobs on the pedal stomp just like on the real pedal would be absolutely fantastic, you can do anything with the timmys EQ, it really is fantastic at being an EQ for your entire sitnal chain while being musical and esay to use.



    The EQ point is incredibly valid. Some pedals have overall "tone" controls, others have more fine-grained EQ controls. The pedals you mentioned are certainly great candidates as well for implementation. The Box of Rock and the Timmy are certainly incredibly popular overdrives, and the EP is as well, but I think it's a little lower down the list. Obviously, it appeals to the interests of the users of the Kemper and to the software developers to build out overdrive models based off more popular tones (which boggles my mind as to why the Metal DS is even an option, as it's based off the Metal Zone).

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack

  • For what it's worth, I'm quite aware it's not possible to "profile" stomp boxes, nor was that what i was insinuating, just to be clear on my point. Glad I got the conversation started on some of these pedals though. The Timmy really would be such an asset on so many levels I think, it really can do anything you want it to with its powerful and simple EQ tone controls

  • I see you point, but then the best solution would be IMO to simply rewrite the software, since none of the best digital modellers around are profiled.
    Don't take me wrong, I'd appreciate if the Profiler allowed to profile OD stomps. I don't think its current incarnation can deal with interpreting more than 1 profile per time, let alone n tho.


    :)


    Sure as someone else has mentioned, another option would be dynamic DSP. in one of the stomp slots you can load a Stomp Profile but some other effects become unavailable,

  • Doygc84, I hear you. Have you checked out the pure booster & plus DS yet? I pretty much have them available on all my sounds. I use them booth separately and together; they can drive the amp nicely.


    .....I still agree with you though. My LTD SE smokes the built-in overdrives. :/

  • @mrguitar Plus DS is based off a DS-1, which is not an overdrive, but based off an MXR Distortion+.

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack

  • Sure. I guess I don't really care what it's based on. It sounds freakin' awesome, and I get fantastic overdrive tones out of it. ....granted I don't crank the gain up very high.


    My goal is to not "hear" with my eyes.


    If you've already checked this one (and the pure booster) out and are not satisfied, then your original observations are still valid.


  • Plus DS is based on a mxr distortion+, which is more of an overdrive, despite it's name.
    the One DS is based on the DS-1.


    hth


    I think I combined two sentences there. What I meant to say was the Plus DS was based off the Distortion +, which isn't that different than the One DS (based off a DS-1). But I was incorrect in that statement. I think I also meant to say the DS-1 is based off the D+, which is also not true.


    Maybe I was drunk when I posted that. Haha.

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack

  • More stomp overdrives would be cool. However, not on the top of my list. Let's remember why many guitarists go the stomp box route in the first place:
    1) more options with one amplifier.
    2) easier on the budget for fickle guitarists that can't make up their mind to drastically change their tone without buying a new amp
    3) convenience on not bothering with an amps' effects loop for delays, verbs, and mods, since all or most drive is in the stomps and the other effects can be placed afterwards.
    4) easy to bend down and adjust on the fly, without getting into the whole worrying about preset thing
    (you know, if you have a few dozen rigs with different combos of effects, but use the same internal overdrive effect and you feel you need to adjust it, you have to go to each and every rig that uses it and make the same adjustment and/or lock it and hit "save" a dozen times, same issue with every other all-in-one device)


    In most cases, overdrive pedals aren't used because they achieve a tone that can't be achieved by any tube guitar amp, rather they allow the guitarist to achieve a tone that can't be produced by the amps that they personally own. When it comes to owning a Kemper, you can have any amp that exists and can find every conceivable type of tone out there and have tons of great built in ways of refining that sound.

    The benefit of using real OD pedals with Kemper is you only have to adjust the actual pedal; the negative is that you can't control it's on off status with the Kemper unless you use the effects loop, which in my case I want to use for my eventide H9.


    However, if I understand correctly, many amp profiles are not simply amp profiles but profiles of an amp pushed by an overdrive pedal. So

  • I believe for an end to end tone & dynamic tone chain a marriage of SS (OD) and tube is required in real time and not have the two baked in together in the profile. If you AB these two approaches in realtime there is a very distinctive difference.


    I have most of the very best tube amps that exist and they all benefit of having the right OD in front of them. Again it's this marriage that yields the best result. The KPA as an amp is no different and this is why I have expressed what I have with my previous responses to the thread.


    Profiling your own stomps would be great however, at this stage I believe addressing the existing models and ensuring they sit in the signal flow exactly as a real world stomp does will satisfy me enough today.


  • Wow. I completely disagree with nearly everything you said.


    1. More options with one amplifier - nope. I use multiple overdrives with the Kemper and not because of a lack of options. Other tube amps I have used have had footswitches, and I used them in tandem with overdrives. The overdrive pedal tonality is my sound. I prefer a great overdrive (or two or three) into an edge of breakup clean amp any day over a dimed half-stack sound. It's personal preference, just like the amp sounds out of the Kemper are phenomenal. However, for myself, I use different amps as a great "base" to paint my sound on.
    2. Easier on the budget - nope. A quality overdrive pedal is going to cost at least $100 US, and some even above $200. If you have three and stack them, then you're probably in the $300-$500 range. One could easily buy a great sounding 15w combo and an A/B box for that price. I easily have $1000 worth of overdrives, and probably have spent at least another $1000 over my lifetime that have been sold or broke. That's not easy on any budget.
    3. Convenience - nope. Having more switches means more complexity and more to set up every time. If I didn't have stomps in front of my Kemper, I'd have less connections, meaning it would be more convenient to set up. It's not convenient for me to carry around a larger pedalboard, to set up and power a MIDI switcher, etc. But I do it anyway because it sounds amazing, especially into amazing-sounding amps on the Kemper.
    4. Easy to bend down and adjust on the fly - okay, I'll give you this one. However, this is really only a case for those with ONE overdrive pedal. I cascade/stack mine, and often have two or three going at a given time. They are set at particular settings and I won't adjust them. If you're pushing a singular amp with an overdrive to tighten it up, some tweaks can be necessary, especially if you flip amps frequently.


    Yes, people use overdrives to drive your amp harder and give it a different signal to base it's own overdrive/compression off of. And, most of the time, this cannot be achieved by a tube amp alone. But taking it even further - the reason for this request is not because there aren't sufficient offerings. There are some good ones. There are, however, many more options out there, all that shape your tone differently, and, based on personal opinion, for better or for worse. That said, I have yet to hear a great digitally-modeled overdrive pedal yet, including the ones in the Kemper (they're good, but not great). Having some better options would certainly take the Kemper to another level in tone shaping.

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack

  • @dougc84


    This is a fun conversation! I'll clarify a bit.


    I got my tone through OD pedals for years, though I usually didn't stack, though in my college days I did a parallel mixing of an OD and a Distortion using a feature on a boss line selector. To clarify my point, I meant if you had a simple tube amp, not a kemper, OD pedals gave you the ability to change your tone much cheaper. When I started getting serious 15 years ago in college, I owned a marshall valve state and found the distortion wanting. A friend gave me a boss super overdrive and I had a used metal zone, 'cause i was into metal and was poor. As I got more serious and began to gig more, I quickly learned that serious guitarists need a tube amp, so I bought a fender deville, even though the distortion channel was the worst i had ever heard, but had been told about the virtues of a good tube amp set clean makes OD pedals sound much better than Solid state-which it did. listening back on my old recordings, I have to say I still like the tones I got in those days, my signature sound being the blending in parallel of the super overdrive and a rat through the deville with an Epiphone les Paul. Worked with the style I used to play and as they say, tone is in the fingers.
    Years later, I owned some wampler pedals, by that point I was playing through a carvin 100b clean channel with a warehouse speaker equipped 4x12, but still never really got into stacking, opting instead to use a separate pedal for heavier and lighter OD. When I heard about the Kemper, I sold everything including my TC electronic G system and haven't looked back. Since then I tried countless profiles until I finally settled on a handful of profiles of a Morgan and an evil Robot that always seem just right. With that said, my tastes, main style, and guitars have changed some over the years. And with that said, for I'll I know the profiles I love so much were created with stacking pedals!
    I'd have to agree that if you've gone through a ton of pedals and found a certain combo stacked together and set just so, you might have difficulty finding a profile that nails that sound by itself. Have you tried profiling your own stuff, that is with your stacked OD pedals into a real amp? I'm ashamed to admit that I've owned my Kemper for three years and have never tried to profile anything.