Amp Profiling Questions?

Hi

No experience myself, so my answers are just off the top of my head. Inserted in red below.

Hi all!

I'm gonna be profiling my Mesa/Boogie amps in a couple of weeks, but first wanted clarification on certain aspects of the profiling process. According to the Profiling Guide, it is recommended to start with a DI profile of the amp first and then proceed to create a Studio Profile. Do I need to create a Studio Profile after every DI amp tone change, or can I simply use the Cabinet from the first Studio Profile and Merge it into ALL subsequent DI profiles I make? This is not very clear in the manual.

You need to either take a DI of each profile along with the studio profile - or, alternatively, you take only one studio profile and a DI of the same exact settings etc, which you merge when you're done. After this, you can slap that (now merged) cabinet onto the other DI profiles, BUT DO NOT MERGE THEM. Merging has already been done. (maybe the name should have been "de-merging"?)

Also, I'm gonna be using outboard preamps for the Studio Profile portion of the process. Most likely I'll be using an SM57 into a NEVE type preamp and an AEA R84 ribbon mic into an API preamp (I'm still not sure, need to experiment more). I'm assuming I'd have to do any phase correction inside my DAW and then send a Line out from my RME UCX into the Return of the Kemper. Is this correct? How are those of you using outboard gear doing this? BTW, I do have the Kemper DI box too.

No, ALWAYS do phase correction by placing the mics correctly!!

Sounds like you're using your interface rather than a mixer to sum the two signals. I would do this using just the interface software rather than in a DAW. I can do that with my Focusrite interface, I don't know what your options are with your particular one.

Last, but not least, someone in another forum mentioned that the refining process can break a perfectly fine profile. If so, would it be possible to save the profile before the refining process? And then compare what it sounds like after refining? I would hate to spend hours setting up and getting my tones correctly just to have the refining process ruin the whole thing.

Sorry, don't know about this myself. But if it sounds good before refining, then just go with that and don't refine, I'd say. Otherwise, try refining. If none of the sounds work out, start over

Thanks, and apologies if these questions have been asked a million times. I've been having a hard time finding answers to these questions.

Just an additional point on refining: Many say that the refining process is unnecessary now with the improvements in the firmware, but it's really dependent on your ears and how accurate the sound is. You can toggle between both the "ready to create" profile and the amp sound being fed into the Kemper (or, in your case, DAW) and preview and compare. If they're a good match when trying them out, they don't need refining, but it really depends mostly on your ears and how perfectly accurate you want your profiles.

If you want to, you can profile your amp, save it without refining, then profile it again. Again, its necessity is up to you, but if you have the time, there's no harm in making extra profiles.

In regards to creating DIs and using your DAW, it's best to experiment. Using a DAW is one additional step that can introduce latency. If you go this route, you want to make sure your buffer size is very low and any "live mode" settings are enabled. I have to go this route if I'm reamping or profiling via multiple mics because my interface doesn't support looping back inputs to outputs other than the main 1-2 set, and I've not had any issues, but it certainly is better to skip that step and let hardware deal with it, instead of getting software involved.

DI profiles merged with studio profiles are only a necessity if you want to use, say, your cab with another profile, or your amp with another cab, and get the most realistic sound. In studio profiles, the Kemper makes a "best guess" on where the amp ends and the cab begins, but that point (and it's EQing, curves, frequency response, etc.) can be refined further by doing the merge process above (and be sure to keep copies of anything before merging in a cab - you'll want them at your disposal just in case).

You don't HAVE to do a DI profile if you don't want or need to.

Quote from Jose7822

I guess I'm confused with the terms here, regarding Merging and simply slapping a cabinet to a profile. What's the difference?

I know. I'm being lazy and wanted to adjust the phase in the DAW. Cubase lets me do this very easily, but I see what you guys are saying about avoiding introducing the DAW into the equation. That's no big deal.

And yes, my RME UCX has its own software mixer with internal loopback capabilities, so I don't even need a cable to do this. RME was the first interface company in the world to introduce the most flexible software mixer (Total Mix), with internal loopback, as well as Zero Latency monitoring. Everyone after started copying them ;-).

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"Merging" is something you do to a DI profile after you've done a copy-paste of the cab portion of the "exact same" studio profile onto it (and yes, copy-paste IS how it must be done - using the buttons on the right side of the unit). After copy-pasting, you press the "merge" button.
So you take the DI (with the physical cabinet attached to the DI box) and then a studio profile with your mics directly afterwards (i.e. no changing any settings). Then do the merge process.
Then save the new profile!!
The cab from that newly merged profile can then be added to other DI profiles, but DO NOT merge it onto those - that will mess up the sound.

Regarding the use of the DAW to get stuff in phase - it doesn't work that way not perfectly, anyway. There is other stuff at play than just the delay due to mic distance. Polarity flip is even more of a crap shoot

Quote from Jose7822

I guess you're right, since I'll be using them with an FRFR monitor. However, my main goal is to create the most accurate profiles of my amps possible. I believe that's achieved through DI (DA) profiling. Is this correct?

Honestly, I don't know and defer to others.

Quote from Jose7822

This is the part I'm not understanding. I get the Merging process that you described at first. What I don't get is how to apply the Cabinet of the merged profile to subsequent DI profiles. Isn't it also done via Copy/Paste? If so, what you're saying is that at that point I'll be asked to merge the profiles and all I have to do is choose not to merge. Is that it?

As I asked earlier, would performing this procedure to all DI profiles give me an accurate representation of the amps? Or do I need to perform the merging process from the first DI profile into every DI profile and their respective Studio profile? Which method is the most accurate? This is another thing I'm still confused about.

After you have a merged profile, you can add the cabinet in whatever way is most convenient. Just don't merge it once more.

You only need to merge ONCE to get the sound of that cabinet FOR THAT PARTICULAR MIC'ING SCHEME.

Quote from Jose7822

Actually, it does work that way. In Cubase I can adjust the mics to be sample accurate very easily. Still, I'll skip the DAW portion and adjust phasing manually. It's not a big deal, just takes more time. I was contemplating using an EQ in the DAW though. I have a few UAD plugins that would be cool to use, but alas.

That sample-accuracy thing is only delaying one of the tracks by a certain amount. It doesn't take into account where mic 2 sounds best in relation to mic 1.

Correct. If you want the cabinet and amp to be totally separate then you must create a studio profile with identical settings as the DI. Refine the DI profile a few times....it makes a huge difference. Once you have those you would merge. (This is how the Kemper can separate the cabinet from the amp). You can have DI profiles (with no cab) and insert a cab without merging. If you have cabinets saved from a merge profile then the cabinet is pure cabinet with no amp spill over. If you pull them form other studio profiles then you will have some amp spill over...how much - No one really knows. The best of everything would be to have DI profiles with purely separate cabs, but you will have to decide what you will use them with and go from there. If you are running into a power amp and speaker cabinet then DI is likely your winner. If you end up running into FRFR then it has been said their is no tonal difference between Studio and merged (DI with cab) profiles. There is a big difference with DI and studio profiles running monitor out cab off into a speaker cabinet because the studio still has cabinet spill over. Hopefully this helps.

Quote from bshaw92

Correct. If you want the cabinet and amp to be totally separate then you must create a studio profile with identical settings as the DI. Refine the DI profile a few times....it makes a huge difference. Once you have those you would merge. (This is how the Kemper can separate the cabinet from the amp). You can have DI profiles (with no cab) and insert a cab without merging. If you have cabinets saved from a merge profile then the cabinet is pure cabinet with no amp spill over. If you pull them form other studio profiles then you will have some amp spill over...how much - No one really knows. The best of everything would be to have DI profiles with purely separate cabs, but you will have to decide what you will use them with and go from there. If you are running into a power amp and speaker cabinet then DI is likely your winner. If you end up running into FRFR then it has been said their is no tonal difference between Studio and merged (DI with cab) profiles. There is a big difference with DI and studio profiles running monitor out cab off into a speaker cabinet because the studio still has cabinet spill over. Hopefully this helps.

This! Perfect explained!

Quote from bshaw92

Correct. If you want the cabinet and amp to be totally separate then you must create a studio profile with identical settings as the DI. Refine the DI profile a few times....it makes a huge difference. Once you have those you would merge. (This is how the Kemper can separate the cabinet from the amp). You can have DI profiles (with no cab) and insert a cab without merging. If you have cabinets saved from a merge profile then the cabinet is pure cabinet with no amp spill over. If you pull them form other studio profiles then you will have some amp spill over...how much - No one really knows. The best of everything would be to have DI profiles with purely separate cabs, but you will have to decide what you will use them with and go from there. If you are running into a power amp and speaker cabinet then DI is likely your winner. If you end up running into FRFR then it has been said their is no tonal difference between Studio and merged (DI with cab) profiles. There is a big difference with DI and studio profiles running monitor out cab off into a speaker cabinet because the studio still has cabinet spill over. Hopefully this helps.

One caveat, however
You can swap cabinets between studio profiles and still get excellent results - not necessarily inferior to using merged cabs.
Merged cabs are for authenticity mainly, not necessarily sound quality.

If you have the time, certainly do a DI profile. It's not that hard to do. My situation makes profiling difficult. I live in an apartment with my wife. Finding a good time where 1. the wife's not home (because it's loud), 2. the neighbors aren't home (because it's that loud), and 3. I feel up to profiling (including setting everything up) and not working on learning music/practicing/whatever... yeah, I haven't profiled much. That said, if you've got the ability, do as much as you can, and you won't have to go back later and redo things.

Quote from Jose7822

BTW, I was just reading in the Kemper Wiki that the Kemper compensates for latency.

Yup. This is why you can profile a laggy POD HD500 and end up with "immediate", responsive tones that are actually playable in the real world as opposed to on internet forums only.

This is my experience at any rate. Others have claimed to perceive no latency with the POD HD units, but it's like chalk and bananas to me.

Quote from Monkey_Man

chalk and bananas

I always thought it sounded like leaky shower heads and rutabagas.