Explaining the modes

  • @Raoul


    It is frustrating isn´t it;I had some students (kids between 12-15 years old) who came to me and said "Hey,thank you!Our teacher in the music lesson wanted to teach us about the church scales and I told him all the half-steps of all the modes..."


    I asked:"Did you play music with your music teacher;Did she/he show you the modes with the help of the piano or guitar;"


    Ofcourse not.Pure theory.I got a lot of recommandation from parents to other parents to teach their kids too of things like these..they got an A in music in school but dont have the time to practice or let alone to jam 1-2 hours the day as they would like to do...they have to learn stuff they will never ever need.Sad enough this is also true for music.And you know what..we teachers are not cheap.Are we;So we talk about well educated kids from the upper middle-class.Parents who are even a little bit more "progressive",a little bit modern hippie-style from the advertising buisness,doctors,teachers,profs etc...


    Well..you shake your head,grab the money and run.

  • thanks much, I have read and studied these many times but they just do not want to enter my mind.
    I guess I'm good with major, minors, 7ths and blue notes. that's already hard to remember for me


    Okay..had some beers (allthough I am sick) but I will tell you "my story to the modes"..maybe this will become a long story..


    Most guitar players at their beginning use the "caged system".This is (still) what they teach in schools.


    You know all these silly scales(well patterns..but..later..) like the c-major with two notes on the E,three notes on the A,D,G and then again two notes on the B & e.


    This is the "system" they will teach you in old fashioned music schools.But a good teacher will try to make you understand that it is all about "economics".Same for fingers and brain.You need something you can easilily "remember",something your finger will do automatically.


    Simple question at first.Studid question..no,I will not ask you.I will just say that it is ofcourse the most human thing to do what our body is made to do.Walking,running..as soon you get used to this (as baby..one step after the other..foot after foot) you dont need to remember again.It is absolutely no difference from what our brain tries to do with an music instrument.


    This "walking & running" does not work very well with the "caged system":

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    Ofcourse we all know it very wellBut It is junk.Forget about it.With this old system we will always have problems to make our brain "run our fingers".Two notes on the b,then again three notes on the g..our right hand will always "fight" with our left hand.For obvious reasons.This is the school of the caged system:


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    You would not like to make two steps with the left foot than three with the right,no;To remember new things,to absorb and more so combine them we need "patterns".The secret of every good player I met in my life lies in there.In the "personal patterns" which work best for our brains and therefore ofcurse for our hands too.This can (must not) be very different to each player.


    So..what about the "uncaged system";It is indeed very simple.The whole idea of the "uncaged system" is to find the "highways" to run fast.I never ever played the C-major like this:


    C,D on th E-String
    E,F,G on the A
    A,B,C on the D
    D,E,F on the g
    G,A on the b and
    B,C on the e


    This^^ is garbage.


    What I always did is this:
    CDE on the A
    FGA on the D
    HCD on the g
    EFG on the b and
    AHC on the e


    Three notes per string pattern.Using alternate picking,legato pulls offs and hammerings is now very easy and natural.Now we can "run" without to think about it.Always for any scale,in any mode as we will see later.Btw..this ^^^ C-major three note per string pattern is also (ofcourse) the A-minor pattern,just add the notes on the E.Voilá.Caution.This is NOT a scale.At least dont see it as such.Otherwise you will fall into the biggest trap some one will fall into when he startes to think in the "uncaged" system.See it as pattern you can use for everything you play.A scheme,a formula you can push and throw around everywhere on your frets.Major,minor,modes...and the next step is to find further three notes pattern.At least on more.And then connect them.Again with three note patters..


    I hope I did not explain this to difficult;Well..I continue..


    Now..what has all this"remembering,making,playing patterns" to do with modes;The answer is simple and most expirienced players ofcourse know it.


    When I was a kid and finally got the help from more expirienced players to forget stupid stuff (like the caged system) I immidiatly started to use these pattern in any key.I started from the e-string and with the forefinger on the key-note if I wanted to play minor and with the small finger on the key note when I wanted to play the major scale.


    So I played the same "figure",the same scheme we call now "pattern" but I "put" this pattern there where it fitted to the result I wanted to achieve.So the C-major pattern is same with the A-minor pattern but what when I want to play the A-major pattern;Ofcourse the answer is clear..


    I continue..


    The way I "found" the modes myself was coincidence.Pure coincidence.This is true.I wanted to play a-minor but instead to start on the A with my forefinger I "missed the fret" and started where the "other marking" :D was..on the 7th fret.So I played my beloved three notes per string pattern,stroke in the end the A string and...it "sounded good but strange".. ^^


    Yes..it was the moment I already played often (specially after the lads of my first band started to bring this beer into the rehearsal room) A-mixolydian..but I did not knew it..my ears were not "developed" and my hand found the way not as easy to the neck as it does today even "in the dark".. :huh:


    But the time came very quick..I started to understand that I could stroke the A-string,play my pattern NOT on the key note and achieve "something different" from the minor feeling....but STILL in the key.Actually I started to "hear" (what a moment..)...and I heard that this thing sounded more like major.But ofcourse it was not.The A-major was on the second fret starting with my forefinger.I asked older players,some knew and told me about modes but by then this was a lot of talk and I wanted to play.. :D



    I than started to ask myself what would happen if I would continue to "push" the pattern further into "undiscovered land".So I started to discover that when I play the empty A-string but play my pattern in the 9th,10th and 12th fret starting with my forefinger that it "sounded good".And if I tried this stunt (always playing the empty A-string as "anchor" for my ears) on the 6th,8th or 11th fret it sounded awefull.Ugly.


    It took me some further time to understand what I did there but obviously this was the "best school" I ever had.I found the modes.And I found them "by my ears" With just one pattern..


    Beginning with the forefinger (playing in A) on the 5th fret (minor),7th fret(Mixo),9th fret (lydian),10 fret (phrygian) and the 12th(dorian).


    Sorry for this "long story",I dont even know if someone will get even one word of what I wanted to say with my rusty english but I guess that the other guys in here will tell you something similiar(sure not the same).


    We have to find "our way home" to music by discovering.You will never remember what some theoretical idiots(sorry..this is harsh but some people have done really big harm to music) who giver a shit about rocknroll have written down in "school books" and which does more damage than it brings young people to music.


    There is a lot of material for the "uncaged systems" on the internet.Most of this stuff is written by real musicians with passion for the issue.And you will wonder how fast your progress will be.


  • Hi Kempermaniac,


    Good stuff. However, I just wanted to point out a possible oversight or explanation that you may have missed, which might cause some confusion.


    Your original (first) post dealt with modes of the Major scale.


    However, in your very next post (quoted above), you have completely left the Major scale, and are now talking about 2 modes from 2 totally different parent scales.


    Phrygian Dominant is the 5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale. So, E-Phrygian Dominant is the 5th mode of the A-Harmonic Minor scale.


    Lydian Dominant is the 4th mode of the Melodic Minor scale. Therefore, C-Lydian Dominant is the 4th mode of the G-Melodic Minor scale.



    Cheers,
    John

    Edited 3 times, last by Tritium ().

  • Hope this helps!


    Thanks for starting this thread :)
    I know the mode - but I'm not shure which to use just seeing the chords.
    I tried by ear but are not every times sucessfull. Only when I have information to use a certain mode i can practice to get it.


    Hope there will come more postings - Harry

    Edited once, last by Sharry ().


  • Hi kempermaniac, good idea to start this threat.
    I think it is helpful when you know all the basics before you go completely to the modes and boxes
    I mean: To know every note on the fretboard and don't think too mathematik, it's absolutely right to use the letters c- d-e......
    In my younger times it was the first thing i have to learn, after that i started to build the triad chords f.e. A minor a-c-e and the first and second chord inversion.
    Next step was to add the major 7 to the triad chords. So you built a good repertoire and if you know the name of every note on the fretboerd it becomes easy after a time of learning to build a chord in mind and not on a sheet of paper.


    So, good idea and go on here :thumbup:


    cheers
    Frank



    and........


  • Thanks John! What we can learn from all the excellent posts here, is, that there are different ways to look at scales and how they are built. For example you can look at E-phrygian dominant like you do or you can say "make the first chord of my phrygian scale major". Just two different ways of memorizing.

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

  • Good stuff....


    I started to learn the modes as a way of seeing the fretboard in patterns and then being able to play any scale anywhere on the neck.
    For example, if you're jamming in the key of C the ionian mode is the straight major scale. D Dorian is the exact same set of notes just starting on the D, E phrygian is the same exact set of notes just starting on the E. So knowing the patterns of those three modes gives you three locations to play the notes from the C ionian scale. So learning all of the modes/patterns it keeps you from getting lost anywhere on the fretboard.


    Then you can start to understand and hear the differences in the sounds/moods of each mode, phrygian sounding flamenco or as my son says "that sounds like a snake".


    Then mix in Pentatonic major/minor, harmonic minors, etc. and you can see where these scales and patterns fit into the modes.


    Not to over-use the word pattern because when you play in patterns alone, you start to sound like a machine or a scale book. But knowing the patterns visually lets you see how the patterns connect, etc.


    Then throw in the blues and all of the normal rules can go out the window :)


    I try to find a good balance of knowing enough theory to stay out of trouble but not allowing the theory to take the soul out of my playing.


    Some say you have to know the rules to break them, others just call it jazz where there are no rules !!

  • Chappers from Andertons did a good lesson on the above a while back.


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  • Quote

    my son says "that sounds like a snake".


    Indeed.."snakecharmer"-scale from 1001 arabian nights!Your son said this very well,this is what you hear if someone knows to handle the phrygian mode!Children have such a beautiful sense of describing things straight from their fantasy.


    @barefly


    You´re welcome friend.

  • In a earlier post I wrote;

    Quote

    There is a lot of material for the "uncaged systems" on the internet.Most of this stuff is written by real musicians with passion for the issue.


    Obviously this changed quite a bit since I looked it up the last time some years ago.After a fellow nice guy here in this forum told me he could not find much about the issue I also have difficulties to find the articles and tutorials I have seen some years ago.


    Here is some stuff I could find in the hurry;
    http://www.musictheoryforguita…agedscalesystemsucks.html
    https://truefire.com/workshops…tails.html?room=Nikky3465
    http://www.freeguitarvideos.co…-fretboard-knowledge.html


    And some links for youtube-tutorials;


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    Since I started this (about the relationsship between modes and "patterns") let me finish my personal,very(very,very,very..) subjective thoughts on the matter..I hopre it is not borung,further I hope I get some help on this issue and at least I hope I do not derail a fantastic thread.If so I am open to any comment/critics feel free to "bash me" and to wuestion my thoughts..this cant be negative.. ;)


    So I continue where I did stop (with the hope there would be a lots of info on the internet for anyone) and I will try to finish my thoughts with 1-2 examples of the way "I do it"..and I mean how I "see" the modes and the methods I use them in context of song-writing and improvisations..


    Since this is a very difficult issue I honestly hope I get some support from other guys.I alsoworry about my english skills and if they are "sufficient" to describe exactly what I want to say and not the opposite with "doing more damage than good".. :/


    I said in a post earlier;

    Quote

    What I always did is this:CDE on the A
    FGA on the D
    HCD on the g
    EFG on the b and
    AHC on the e


    ....Three notes per string pattern.Using alternate picking,legato pulls offs and hammerings is now very easy and natural.Now we can "run" without to think about it.Always for any scale,in any mode as we will see later.Btw..this ^^^ C-major three note per string pattern is also (ofcourse) the A-minor pattern,just add the notes on the E.Voilá.Caution.This is NOT a scale.At least dont see it as such.


    So what I have here is a pattern with three notes on every string.This is the "crucial" point.I also said that we can use this pattern on any key.It is all about the chords which we will play or the key-note which will determine what kind of mode we are playing at any moment.


    In my example I used the C key using this pattern to play the major scale and tried to explain that since A-minor is the "relative key"- it is ofcourse only logical that we can use the exactly same pattern to play it.


    What I also said;

    Quote

    See it as pattern you can use for everything you play.A scheme,a formula you can push and throw around everywhere on your frets.Major,minor,modes...and the next step is to find further three notes pattern.At least on more.And then connect them.Again with three note patters..


    One pattern is obviously "not enough".We are still trapped in a "cagedsystem-style vertical"-type of scale playing it up and down..though with the big advantage that our right hand has now the ability to follow the left hand with a equally consistent,"smooth" three strokes per string-playing.


    But we want to GET OUT of the trap.We want to be able to play all along the fret.We want to be able to use for example as many modes as we like in any given time we could do it since the chord-progression or the theme/vamp allows us to do it in many,many cases..


    In my opinion the next step for everyone who wants to use all modes playing also free,uncaged and "more horizontally"is clear..we dont want just to play one vertical scale after the next...being tonally,technically and most of all "inspirationally trapped"..so what to do;Locical answer is to go first for another three-notes per string pattern.For a different one we already have.It should be not "to close" because we want to use as many as possible notes between them to combine them horizontally in the most economic and "easiest" way which can only be further three notes moves/patterns/figures.Okay..slow here..I start to accelerate and Im going to loose the context..


    This "next pattern" should not be to close to our first three-notes per string pattern but it should be also not to far away,Actually if we see the whole matter logically and "with some sense of economics/mathematics" we will agree than the next pattern should enable us to "remember" easily the "bridges" between the two three-notes-per-string patterns.After all this is what freedom is all about.If something is too complicated you will not remember blablabla..


    Taking again my C-major/A-minor-pattern I used till yet to explain my thought..it is "in the region" between the 3rd fret and the 8th fret.


    Since we need "more freedom" it will be only logical if we try to "construct" our next pattern "in the region" between the 12th and the 17th fret;



    What I did in the beginning of "my journey to the modes" was this(always the C-major/A-minor-pattern-thing as "anchor"):


    E-string
    D/E/F
    A-string
    G/A/B
    D-string
    C/D/E
    G-string
    F/G/A
    b-string
    B/C/D
    e-string
    E/F/G


    Correction;This is indeed a "pure pattern" and has nothing to do anymore with the A-minor/C-major-"thinking"..it was back then just my "second pattern" my "next figure" I needed to get my beloved freedom on the fretboard.And right now it is just a way to explain what I want to achieve..


    Using these two patterns (always in the same "displacement") in most keys offer immidiatly at least three "hot spots" from where we can "start" having already the other pattern "in mind" to leave the vertical play "working" ourselves horizontally all over the fretboard.


    Just one example and I wont give further since one example is already enough to show what we can do with just two three-notes-per-string-patterns;


    I want to play "some improvisation" in A-minor and I already have some "hooks" and a few "themes" I want to play and repeat within at least 3 octaves..or maybe 4 octaves;


    With my pattern I would start from the A on the E-string on the 5th fret,playing three note pattern till the A on the 17th fret on the high e-string.Like this:


    E-string
    A/B/C
    A-string
    EFG
    D-string
    H/C/D
    G-string
    F/G/A
    b-string
    B/C/D
    e-string
    F/G/A


    As I said..this is just one example.We can do now horizontally EVERYTHING we like.Most important of all it is to any player himself how to "organize" his pattern as long as he follows just a few crucial "laws of economics and maths".I know many players who play different three notes per string patterns..in much different ways I do.But ALL use these kind of patterns and also ALL try to think as "horizontally" as possible.


    So again..what has all this "pattern-blabla" to do with the modes;IMO everything!IMO you NEED this "horizontally thinking" to leave as fast as possible the much to long and huge "learning/practice"-curve you will be trapped in if you try these stunts within vertically limited scales/patterns all over the fretboard.


    In my beginningof my "journey to the modes" I said to myself.."well...A-Mixo;Ah..B-minor/D-major three-notes-per-string-pattern,be just carefull that you give your audience the right key to where they are...lets go!"All I did was to built up the "feel of the mode" by returning "from time to time" to the tonic/root of the key we played in.


    This was all about.Ofcourse over the years I became more and more secure about the "reservoir of notes" I could play within any key and any mode.It was just a huge pushing and pulling the same patterns on any key I wanted.


    Thats it.


    As I said..I am open to any comment,critic,bashing..let me know what you think.

    Edited once, last by Nikos ().

  • Ditto. I've been trying to get my head around this whole modes thing for way too long now (not practicing doesn't help matters :whistling: ) and also switching between fingerings/boxes so I'm gonna give Nikos' thing a shot. Thanks, Nik!

    I'm just trying to be as truthful to my experience and personal opinion that I'm clearly presenting only as a personal opinion no more no less in an honest and truthful discussion about equipment.

  • You guys are all welcome!


    I honestly hope I can help a t least a little bit.It would be much better if some other guys would join this discussion since in this case there is no "single,real way" to do this.


    @Zapman & @MuddyFox
    Just one thing..let us know how good it works out for you.And since I know one thing for sure;Better to ask twice than not at all..so dont be shy..and please dont give up.This is just to important to let it down. ;)

  • I scanned this thread pretty quickly so plz forgive me if what im going to say has already been said.


    heres my opinion so keep in mind its just that; an opinion.


    they tell you whatever feels natural to u is the way to go. I used to lay my ring finger on the fretboard. I learnt to play without it as well on occasions (to access some notes with hybrid picking when need be). Same goes with strict alternate vs economy picking.i beleive we should know both to add colours to ur palette.


    I wont go more into details but what im trying to say is that ultimately if you want to be free you have to have different methods of visualisation.
    caged is good. Three notes per string too.
    another great visualisation technique that helped me a lot was playing one octave modes.
    starting with the first finger one octave of each of these modes. The. Starting with the second and finally with the 3rd or 4th (depending on the modes fingering ull know). But the key here is to pay attention to the intervals!! That way u wont be learning a new mode each time. Itll be easy to learn new scales quickly and is great ear training because ull understand as well as feel why they sound the way they do.


    then switch to another set of strings. To recap lets say u start on the 6th low E string with the index finger one octave of that mode after mode.
    then middle finger one octave of each
    finally pink or ring finger same thing.
    now start on the 5th string with the index etc


    once you get better at that you play more than one octave again still paying attention to the intervals.


    another great exercise to help u learn these scales faster is inky playing one interval and nothing else!
    so say were in the key of A. Play the b3 surrounding the root. Then go to another root on another string and find the b3 around it.


    i recommend checking out Tom Quayle's fretboard visualisation tutorial that u can buy frim his website.


    each visualisation technique has its advantages and weaknesses.


    i say why be in a hurry. lets learn them at our own pace and benefit fron them all.


    again that is just my opinion. i dont have much credit either as i am not done with that phase to speak as an expert: im currently in the process of learning the fretboard. I say this however because inhave been seeing some results although i have yet so much work to do!


    Keep in mind the learning curve however. It is more exponential than linear. What i mean is it is daunting yes but more than it should be because the more you learn the easier it is to learn the next thing as things start to connect sinilar to intervals. The faster you get at seeing them and hearing them the easier it is to learn more stuff like chords arps new scales etc


    either way happy learning!

  • Hopefully no typos below, but here is another way of looking at things that some of you have touched on above. There are many great sites out there with info on this. Younger players are learning at a great time, the internet is full of info for you. I think this is why we have so many talented musicians out there in so many varieties of styles.


    Ionian - C D E F G A B C (works over Cmaj, Cmaj7, Cmaj9 etc.)
    Dorian - C D Eb F G A Bb C (minor 3rd and flatted 7; Cm7, Cm9, Cm11) has a Major 6
    Phrygian - C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C (works over Cm7 with a spanish sound to it) Has a flatted 2nd
    Lydian - C D E F# G A B C (works over Cmaj7#11) #11
    Myxolydian - C D E F G A Bb C (Flatted 7th, works over C7)
    Aeolian - C D Eb F G Ab Bb C (This is your natural minor scale; Try using it where you use the typical Blues Scale or Pentatonic to add more melodic choices)
    Locrian - C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C (works over Cm7b5)


    Another way of looking at it:
    I Ionian1 2 3 4 5 6 7C D E F G A B Cmaj7
    II Dorian1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7D E F G A B C Dm7
    III Phrygian1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7E F G A B C D Em7
    IV Lydian1 2 3 #4 5 6 7F G A B C D E Fmaj7
    V Myxolydian1 2 3 4 5 6 b7G A B C D E F G7
    VI Aeolian1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7A B C D E F G Am7
    VII Locrian1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7B C D E F G A Bm7b5


    So if you had a chord progression in the Key of C - Am7, Dm7, G7, Cmaj7, Fmaj7#11, Em7, Bm7b5, Cmaj7 you could improvise over the entire progression using the C Major Scale and you would be playing through all of the modes in this order: A Aeolian, D Dorian, G Myxolydian, C Ionian/Major, F Lydian, E Phrygian, B Locrian and back to C Ionian/Major. Try it. Learn the chords, Loop 'em on your Remote, and improvise using C Major scale and listen as the sound changes.


    Over time you develop the ability to play any mode in any key starting from it's root. This is barely scratching the surface, but well worth the effort to get into your playing, regardless of your musical style.

  • @djazz


    Have you ever tried a sus2 while playing mixolydian;


    I wonder that most guys just mention the 7th chords for the mixo while the "real beauty" for mixo was always the sus2.Just listen to the opening chord of purple rain.. :love:


    @Rispsira


    Indeed very interesting.


    One last thing I would like to mention and then I will leave this thread alone (since my "take over" of it was not meant like this,sorry again)..


    Keep in mind "the drones"..most of the ethnical music which uses modes like lydian,mixo or dorian has "the drone built in"..this goes from the irish/scotish folk music to india to the balkans to asia.I would like to say that most of these music would be impossible without the "drone" since they change a lot between completely different sounding scales,modes within a bar just with the "help" of a fixed anchor which is msot of the time a bass note/open bass frequency type string or wind instrument (from the scotish bagpipe to the sitar to whatever..)


    The drone may be also essential in "learning the feel of the modes" specially for modes like mixo or lydian.It is also very interesting to play an empty string (take the low E on guitar or tune it even down to D) while playing "the pattern"/the modes on the other 5 strings..


    Over and out.

  • Mixolydian also works over basic blues progressions really well, since those are mostly 7 chords. Gives it the major/happy Larry Carlton kind of vibe. Mixing that with the minor pentatonic gives some very cool sounds, especially when moving between the minor/major third