Explaining the modes

  • One last thing I would like to mention and then I will leave this thread alone (since my "take over" of it was not meant like this,sorry again)..


    There were lot of things which motivate to look behind and optimize some way of point of view.
    Thanks for your input. - Harry


    PS: I would not be disturbed if you continue - ;)

  • Just wanted to chime in again, to add an important recommendation when it comes to 3-note per string scalar phrasing. 3-note per string patterns work wonderfully with Major and Natural Minor scales (and all their associated modes). However, I would definitely not recommend following a strict 3-note per string pattern when it comes to Harmonic Minor (or associated Phrygian Dominant Mode).


    For Harmonic Minor, I recommend you use a hybrid 3- and 4- note pattern. This is the same fingering that Yngwie employs. Harmonic Minor just doesn't lend itself to a strict 3-note per string pattern, due to the augmented 7th.


    Here, below, are a few examples of an A-harmonic Minor scale using three common patterns. On the strings with 4-notes, an upward slide with the index finger is used to move from the first note into the second (when ascending), and a downward slide of the index finger from the 3rd note to the 4th note (when descending). The following diagrams might help make this more clear:


    This first pattern spans 3 octaves:
    [Blocked Image: http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/Deuterium/figure1.jpg]
    Here is the second pattern:
    [Blocked Image: http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/Deuterium/figure2.jpg]
    And here is the third pattern:
    [Blocked Image: http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/Deuterium/figure3.jpg]
    If you are interested in seeing the Harmonic Minor (and Phrygian Mode) in action, I can think of no better example:


    External Content www.youtube.com
    Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.
    Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.

  • My take on all of this is as i got older and more in to learning why i was playing something instead of "that sounds good ill just play that" kind of mood, i came across many good things to help me expand my playing. Once you know certain things about the way the strings are related etc your knowledge and ability to play the guitar expands. One of the things was the way I, III, and V from a chord are always in the same place in relation to each other except when you come to the B string. My teacher then explained the B String shift which then allowed me to know exactly where these three notes where all the time in relationship to each other. From these three notes i was then able to know where say a flat III or flat V was etc. Next came the learning of the construction of all the scales, well really tou only need to know the contruction of the major scale as all modes and other scales are based around this. Once i knew the contruction of all the scales off by heart i then put this together with the I, III, V note knowledge i knew and my playing really came on, I found i was more fluent around the fretboard and the tonalities i was able to create/play sounded a whole lot better than just jamming in the pentatonic minor scale lol

  • Well put. This is the exact roadmap I've laid out for myself (triads, then scales) but I just can't seem to get around to actually buckling down and getting through it all. :rolleyes:

    I'm just trying to be as truthful to my experience and personal opinion that I'm clearly presenting only as a personal opinion no more no less in an honest and truthful discussion about equipment.

  • Hey guys,
    first of all thank you for writing such long and thorough explanations on this topic.


    Sadly I still don't comprehend how I can use these methods scales etc. for my own music. Let me just give you a quick look inside how I approached the guitar. I had 6 years of guitar lessons from age 9 to 15 (I'm currently 22) and learned how to play by notes, which I now have almost entirely forgotten due to the easy accessibility of tabs.
    For improvising I only used the pentatonic Scale at first and found all kind of interesting notes that made it sound better and more free. I gathered all kind of new tones and subscales from covering other guitarist and with combining their styles in my playing I progressed further and further.
    Although I love math and I'm currently studying computer science I didn't want to bring math into music. I love logic but the thought of breaking music down into something that can be measured or even explained always bothered me.
    I didn't want my music to be something that can be deconstructed.


    Because of this way of thinking I kept away from modes, the CAGED system and almost everything mentioned in the previous threads.
    I just wanted to play music and not think about it...
    "If I place my fingers here it sounds good", this and nothing else was my motto.


    Now maybe, just maybe, it is time to break out of my thinking and learn how these things can actually help to write music
    For me the important question is: "how can I use this to write better songs?"
    I don't want to just improvise over existing music, a backing track or whatever. I want to create my own music and everything I can't use in this creationcycle is rather useless to me.
    Don't get me wrong new scales and learning how to play them can help you get to know the fretboard and play new and different licks, but still to I'm trying to grasp how these modes can help me further than this.
    Maybe they can't or maybe I'm not getting it.


    Let me share something with you:
    My songwriting process normally starts with just the chord-layout. Upon that I'll add the beat and all forms of melodies until the song is complete. Sometimes the chord-layout changes with the melodies and sometimes it doesn't.
    Now I wonder how I can figure out what modes or scales I can play over which chords to make the "coming up with melodies part" easier, which could be one part where learning the modes could be useful.


    Someone wrote something about feelings of modes. Maybe I can try them out for my "coming up with melodies part" as well.


    This is something I'm currently working on. Excuse the poor playing and the poor choice of sound this is just something for me so the idea doesn't get lost:
    https://soundcloud.com/si_nch/weirdchords/s-1P5IJ


    Here is the chord-layout, which I only know because of a helpful side, that let's me communicate with other musicians http://jguitar.com/chordname
    Vers
    C#madd9 F#m9 F#m7 F#m9
    C#madd9 DM7 Dm7#11 G#7b13
    Chorus
    C#m7 Bsus4addb11 Aadd9 Bsus4addb11 E G#7b13


    What I want to know is wo do I know which Mode to play over which Chord? Can you even say something like you should play this mode over this chord... ?


    What kind of modes would you play over these Chords? Btw I don't even know how to figure out a key of a song :whistling: Maybe this is C#m-ish


    If someone takes the time to explain this to me I would be very grateful. If not, it's totally fine with me.


    I just wanted to share my approach to music and that I don't believe that you need to deconstruct music to create it yourself.
    Have a great day! :)


    -----
    As always excuse my english :thumbup:


    Edit: trying to figure out how to share soundcloudlinks

  • Wow - I've just found this great post... thx to everyone contributing to that. It will take me days to get through this ;) but seems worthy in every way!

    Gear: Strats & KPA. Plug Ins: Cubase, NI, iZotope, Slate, XLN, Spectrasonics.
    Music: Song from my former band: vimeo.com/10419626[/media][/media][/media] Something new on the way...

  • It will take me days to get through this but seems worthy in every way!


    You are very optimistic ;)
    For me I expect years :D
    Now Seriously.
    I know the modes, but I did not use it so much . Sometime the doric(2), aeolic(6) or melodic moll and the mixolydian (5). Special when searching for interessant passing tones (I hope this word is understood - dont know the english term.). Seldom for a whole Melody (and when mostly the doric) . Lydian(4), Phrygian(3) and locrian(j7) I never tried.
    The one is to know the notes - the other is to know it by heart and by ear. This needs years and the interest to practice that.
    But anyway this thread motivates me to include it again in my trainings program.

  • @Sharry


    Thanx a lot friend..


    It is just that one can do a lot of "damage" if he makes not sure that all this is just his very subjective view on things.Music is the expression of our souls after all and nobody can give any "good advise" to other guys how to use "instruments of expressions" (specially with tools like modes) for themselves.I would even say that this is "very dangerous" for many reasons.


    Quote

    Sadly I still don't comprehend how I can use these methods scales etc. for my own music. Let me just give you a quick look inside how I approached the guitar. I had 6 years of guitar lessons from age 9 to 15 (I'm currently 22) and learned how to play by notes, which I now have almost entirely forgotten due to the easy accessibility of tabs.


    Ugh..I will claim that with 22 a young man is just on his "peak" playing,discovering,discovering playing while he will just start to understand by heart that making music is not really "to show off" and to feed the ego but that there is "more"..somewhere..


    Just patience.Some things come on their own. ;)


    What you can do now;Listen to artists who are "masters" in the issue you want to get in.I dont know if you know players like Jeff Beck.This guy was nowhere in his 20s compared with where he was 20-30 years later writing music history with mixolydian stuff.Compare him playing with the yardbirds and then his stuff he did in "There and Beck" or "Guitar shop".There are some "mixolydian classic" he wrote in the 80s...listen to it ("where were you",Led Boots etc,etc)..music from outerspace..I wish I could play just one single note of it the way he does. :/


    Keep in mind that some of the greatest artists of our time and rockhistory did NOT use modes like classical songwriters do.Did Bob Dylan ever used Mixo;I guess not so much;Or Bruce Springsteen;


    Artists like Frank Zappa,Prince,Kate Bush and so many others did use very often just simple "vamps" in different modes...with a cool groove.Fine little,repeating bass-melodies of just 2-3-4 notes creating some cool atmo.Listen to Zappa how he used Lydian or Mixo.There is no supa dupa chord progression..he just leaves it to the "feel" of a special mode to make the "song"..


    Actually this is what "rockmusic" still can learn from ethno/folk music.Creating "atmosphere" trying to achieve "visual music" (landscapes etc).Many bands did that in the 60s and 70s (just think of Lep Zepp or Pink Floyd and others).


    For some reason this is "lost" to a big degree.


    http://schoolofgroove.com/musi…t-prince-praises-beyonce/


    Quote

    .. I was really curious as to how much she knew musically and I was really pleased to find out that she knew a lot about scales. Mixolydian scales and Egyptian styles and different things like that and.. I was trying to show her some chords on the piano and help her to respect the fact that if she learns piano ala Aretha Franklin and Ray Charles.. and things like that I mean it’s.. the sky’s the limit as to what she can do, ’cause she’s so very talented.

    Edited once, last by Nikos ().


  • Nikos: Yes, the Myxolydian fits it like a glove since it contains all of the notes of that chord and more.


    MonkeyPeanutButter: That sounds beautiful especially with effects on the guitar. If I have some time later (I'm not around a guitar), I'll give you a ton of clues for improvising over it. For now, if you look at the 1st two chords C#m7 and F#m7, they are in the Key of E Major (or C#m). The chords in the key of E using "Music Theory" gives you I - EMaj7 (Ionian/Major), II - F#m7 (Dorian), III - G#m7 (Phrygian), IV - A Maj7 (Lydian), V - B7 (Myxolydian and feel free to try the Bsus2 as Niko suggested), VI - C#m7 (Aeolian or Natural Minor), and finally VII - D#m7b5 (Locrian). E Major Scale works over all these chords, you'll actually be playing the modes and not know it.


    So analyzing your chords, the DMaj7 put you into a different key and you could think of that chord as a I or IV chord and use the D Major Scale or D Lydian mode over it. Are you sure you didn't mean D#m7#11 for the Dm7#11?, that would make more sense as it is actually D#m7b5 or the VII in the key of E. Finally, D#m7b5 to G#7b13 is basically a minor II-V-I leading you back to C#m7. The only chord I didn't mention is the G#7b13. To fit it like a glove, use the 7th mode of the A melodic minor scale called the G# Altered dominate scale (in other words play A Melodic minor over it). I need to think about the Bsus4addb11 because it doesn't make sense. A flat 11 is a flat 4 or simply the 3rd. I think you are simply playing Bsus4 (or you could play Bsus2 as Niko mentioned and use the Myxolydian over it).


    Try it out, improvise over it and record it and let us hear how it sounds. As someone else said here, keep it simple use your ears, if it sounds good to you, it's probably correct theoretically, no matter what the classically trained theorists call it.

  • Ugh..I will claim that with 22 a young man is just on his "peak" playing,discovering,discovering playing while he will just start to understand by heart that making music is not really "to show off" and to feed the ego but that there is "more"..somewhere..


    Just patience.Some things come on their own.


    Hey Nikos,
    thank you for your answer :)
    I'll take my time and listen to these artists. Maybe there's something I enjoy listening to, maybe not.


    I also know, that not everybody uses chord-layouts to write songs and that their even is music that works without having to name specific chords. I just wanted to share my approach to songwriting and explain why it maybe is hard for me to get into the first steps of modes or why I didn't comprehend how I could use them in my own writing and playing.


    But it still kind of makes me sad, that you believe that I think that music is just about "showing off" and that I just play guitar to feed my ego. :(
    Music for me is so much more. It helped me to deal with so many issues in my life and I believe that every relationship to music anyone has, is totally different from each other. Yes, maybe my relationship to music will change in the next 30 years of my life, and I'm looking forward to that, but I don't believe that it takes a certain age to enjoy music from within or to "get" that there is something more going on.


    I also didn't want to sound like a show-off so forgive me if I did. English is my second language (if you couldn't guess already :D )


    -------------------

    That sounds beautiful especially with effects on the guitar. If I have some time later (I'm not around a guitar), I'll give you a ton of clues for improvising over it. For now, if you look at the 1st two chords C#m7 and F#m7, they are in the Key of E Major (or C#m). The chords in the key of E using "Music Theory" gives you I - EMaj7 (Ionian/Major), II - F#m7 (Dorian), III - G#m7 (Phrygian), IV - A Maj7 (Lydian), V - B7 (Myxolydian and feel free to try the Bsus2 as Niko suggested), VI - C#m7 (Aeolian or Natural Minor), and finally VII - D#m7b5 (Locrian). E Major Scale works over all these chords, you'll actually be playing the modes and not know it.


    So analyzing your chords, the DMaj7 put you into a different key and you could think of that chord as a I or IV chord and use the D Major Scale or D Lydian mode over it. Are you sure you didn't mean D#m7#11 for the Dm7#11?, that would make more sense as it is actually D#m7b5 or the VII in the key of E. Finally, D#m7b5 to G#7b13 is basically a minor II-V-I leading you back to C#m7. The only chord I didn't mention is the G#7b13. To fit it like a glove, use the 7th mode of the A melodic minor scale called the G# Altered dominate scale (in other words play A Melodic minor over it). I need to think about the Bsus4addb11 because it doesn't make sense. A flat 11 is a flat 4 or simply the 3rd. I think you are simply playing Bsus4 (or you could play Bsus2 as Niko mentioned and use the Myxolydian over it).


    @djazz thank you for your answer as well :)
    This is exactly, what I was looking for.
    I mostly use this website to "know" which chords I'm playing http://jguitar.com/chordname
    I'm pretty sure the DM7 (D Major 7th) and the Dm7#11 (D Major 7 Sharp 11th) are correct although I normally write them in the "german" context I don't believe my trusted website made a mistake.
    As with the Bsus4addb11 other recommendations on the side on how to "call" it were Badd4 and Badd11 so maybe they fit better here?


    I'm just gonna try these scales when I got some time on my hands and maybe do a recording if it sounds any good.
    Also I'm gonna read into chords and how they are formed because it seems to me, that I know almost nothing about that as well :whistling:


    Thanks again djazz for your effort and the nice words :)


    If you're interested in the Profile it is the "A-D/13 FTR37 Atmos" by the Amp Factory. http://www.theampfactory.com/d…d-by-13-frt37-9-profiles/
    I just dialed back the delay and reverb mix.

  • MonkeyPeanutButter.. I don't think Nikos was describing you per se, only young men playing guitars for a different reason, ie. impressing women, sounding like their guitar idols. He didn't single you out nor intend to belittle you only imply that with age comes different wants out of music for most, emphasize the "most", haha. Anyway everyone that I have seen on this thread is trying to help others greatly and I really appreciate it as I appreciate hearing your situation also. Stay tuned we will all benefit from these discussions. Peace!

  • I was for many years a "Guitar George" and never bothered with scales but seriously knew my chords and how they should be arranged. Coming to lead later I found myself doing some stuff that sounded good, fingers crossed due to me putting my theory homework in)
    Exploring Modes later on made me understand why it sounded half decent and what else would too without having to resort to trial and error when getting outside the safety zone!


    I'd never profess to being a technical guitarist but sometimes (for me anyway), it's reassuring to know that what you're doing is sometimes the same as people who have gone the technical route. We can all get to the same destination, just from a different direction on the crossroads and all are equally valid.


    To be fair, I've sat down and practiced (as opposed to just gigging) for the first time in god knows how long after this throws popped up, so its all good!

  • @MonkeyPeanutButter


    Dear friend..this is a huge missunderstanding and ofcourse it is my fault.I am very sorry ´cause often I write in the hurry trying to say something about a complex issue and dont take my time to write exactly what I want to say.Ofcourse I did not meant you.If I meant anyone than I descibed myself and my "generation" some 25 years ago when it was more like "can you play THAT;" than anything else.Later in my existance as musician I said to myself "hey..you dont need this anymore..just relax and enjoy music"..Let me say that I started with blues-style of music but very soon could not resist "going fast" since me and most other young musicians by that time were "just taken by the flood"..I cant even remember how many of my friends in their early 20s by that time left for the private music academies in the USA..just to learn "perfect shred".. :S


    Ofcourse none of them plays like this anymore today.All good musicians. ;)


    I believe that there are timepoints in the life of any musician which he has to go through.As "young men" we will ofcourse play very different from when we get older.This happened to most if not to all musicians.This is all I wanted to say and to be honest often enough I miss a little bit these "cojones" and the "hot blood" I felt with 19-22 night and day... <X:D


    Sorry again..stupid me.

  • I don't think Nikos was describing you per se, only young men playing guitars for a different reason, ie. impressing women,


    Ähäm, if I'm really honest, I started to play guitar because I noticed the most girls are close to guitar playing guys at the lake. :D
    I was 16 years old and it was in the middle of the 60ies. Transportable Radios or record player was very seldom. The main stream music was not so difficult to play.
    Very soon I found out to play music gives a kind of satisfaction you never can have with a girl. And especially not so long and everytime you would like. ;)
    As usual in that time I learned it by my self and never had a teacher. I practiced a lot, try to play what I have heard or somebody has shown me. (Well,never I played as professional.)
    But in this way I never got an overview to understand what I was playing.
    In the early 70ies I got the chance to become a singer in a Big band. But it was boring to wait behind the stage for my performance, when the band is playing instrumental.
    So I start to learn this kind of harmonies and half a year later I could play with.
    But still I did not understand what I was playing. I just was able to play the chords, which was written in the notes.
    By chance I had opportunity to visit an evening jazz seminar for 2 semester.
    Our pianist was the director of a music school and organised it.
    I did not become a better guitar player at that time, but I learned more to understand what I play.
    I learned to analyse what is behind, when I had an idea for a song and what's do to for work it out.
    After that, listen or play music for me was a step to another level. Maybe the spontaneity and unconcern was lost a little, but the horizon becomes wider.
    It was a development I never would had if I only had concentrated for me, for my ideas and for my feelings. (Well, I do not think that I am an extraordinary talent.)
    For professional reasons, I had to expose playing more than 20 years, but knowledge and interest to acquire further knowledge was not lost.


    Have fun, but sometimes to get sweat is also funny. :P - Harry

  • Quote

    Ähäm, if I'm really honest, I started to play guitar because I noticed the most girls are close to guitar playing guys at the lake.


    Imo this is perfectly fine when you are a kid.Is there any better reason; :D;)


    The thing is (and now returning to the modes) that you need some extra love for music and most of all a lot of expirience to get them work for you.This is maybe a very serious thing for our discussion.How much do ypu love music to sit down and "work it out" with keepoing in mind that this will become a long journey;Taking years;


    I had often kids who looked "for the trick".No work,no practice..just to become as fast as possible "the superstar" in school...the guitar hero getting "trhe chicks after school at the lake".I once had a girl who came to me for guitar lessons.She was obviously a "little princess" who got always what ever she wanted "here and now".She started immidiatly to ask me for a special song (cant remember..I think it was some Nicklebag-thing) and after I said "hey cutie..let us start with the basics and later we will see.." she got angry and said "no..I want you to show it to me now!"I said to myself that I could do this just to show her that it is difficult and not possible in her first lesson.She tried what I did show her..realised that she could not play it and got angry..than looked at me and said;"Now show me the trick!!" :rolleyes:


    The more you love music,the more you will sit down,work,discover yourself,ask more expirienced and bette players and most of all you will accept that it is a "long journey" taking years..but that it is worth every single minute.The modes are the same issue.You need "lifeexpirience" to understand yourself,who you are what you need and what you need not.After all modes do help (a lot actually) to find better,more exact ways to express yourself and your emotions.This cant be done "fast" and with no knowledge about yourself.This is just as logical and simple as it can get.

  • I have to just say that starting guitar in my 50's lends to a different reason than impressing anyone. Well, there is one person to impress and that is me, myself, and I depending on how you look at it. At first I originally wanted to just play lead and conquer some of my all time favorite guitar solos because in my mind I didn't need or want to play rhythm nor did I want to learn theory. Well that didn't last long before I became intrigued and started looking under the hood of those famous solos and songs as to how, why, and what they were made up of. Having no set time frame to learn guitar, except the rest of my life, leads to a very rewarding learning experiences with music and the guitar in general. It actually is a great stress reliever and as @Sharry put it, another type of satisfaction that is there every time I grab that guitar. I really like reading other peoples take on theory as well as their background of learning this great instrument. Peace!!

  • @Zapman


    I have a big talent to act like an elephant in this special issue.I think often I just "say the obvious" and a lot of people feel like "he talked about me;"-kind of thing..which is the last thing I want to do.


    All I wanted to say to @MonkeyPeanutButter was that he does not need to include all the modes-stuff in his songwriting...yet..after all songwriting and creating melodies is a thing of inspiration.I never felt (at least not about my own music) that I could sit down and say "hey..today I will write a dorian song"..
    Most of the times I had an idea and realized that it is in some other mode than aeloian or ionian.Most ideas I had were some kind of Mixo or Dorian.But I never put me under pressure for writung in these modes.


    This is all (honestly) what I wanted to say to @'MonkeyPeanutButter.


    He could just start to try the modes in a far more simple context like intros,lead-solos or creating some cool "vamps" which are very easy to create.No need for complicated chord-progesssions and stuff like this.If he does not have right now any "ideas in these modes" he does not need to think about them in this context.But I met a lot of guys who tried this "I must show that I am able to compose in all modes" and most of the times they failed badly because it was more an ego-thing than a "need from the heart".



    I am very sorry because I have the feeling I derailed this thread.