The other camp - Axe-Fx II Quantum 2.00 Public Beta Deux

  • It has been interesting reading how the Fractal owners can be so defensive about their product and how much better it is than anything else out there. Perhaps part of it is the thought that they had the best modeler on the planet, and then Kemper comes along and gives them a serious challenge in the eyes of the industry. All of a sudden big touring acts as well as name studios have Kempers in widespread use, obviously displacing the Fractal that might have been in its place. They no longer have to constantly tweak the Fractal to get it to sound like the real amps, they just take a profile and they are there. And the ability to take profiles made during recording on stage is amazing.


    Part of the Fractal response seems to be some sort of nervousness. This is hard to figure out as the Fractal and Kemper are two different world class products with different uses, and can even be complimentary. I wonder if Fractal is nervous because Line 6 just seriously upstaged the AX8 with the Helix. It has the same approximate price point, similar effects versatility, and a UI to die for. It frankly made the AX8 look like an old school piece of machinery. I'm sure the AX8 is better than the Helix in amp tones, but since you can go into most any GC and try out a Helix, probably only those in the know will spring for the AX8.


    Some of what Fractal does seems to be playing catch-up with Kemper (their version of tone matching and their take on PureCab) as well. But I find it immensely cool that CK and the folks at Kemper keep going along to "follow their own funky path" (to quote Undercover Brother), constantly rethinking the modeler and effects and giving us new tones and features.


    such a freakin' behaviour. people want to make sure their product is the best and the manufacturer is world leader while competition is ages away to reassure themselves. well that would mean they just spent way too much to a monopolistic company. I own the KPA because among top modellers it's the EASY TO USE one, and I want fractal & kemper to compete in innovation, to push boudaries and feel at risk of needing continuous improvement to keep their market shares, cause I want to know that my money is well spent and my customer experience will keep on increasing.


    what if fractal sounds better? great for them! that's the noodling machine I do not want so I'm still happy with my toaster, cause it still sounds good (f*ckin' good indeed)

  • Personally, I think it's funny as well... As long as there's no ill-will, why not have a little fun?
    If you don't share the sense of humor - why not just let it be and let others have a bit of fun... No harm done... think about it :)


    No problem with that in general. ;)
    Still I stand with my assessment that this thread is useless, like all the others before.
    The only reason why this one hasn't gone down the drain completely is because the usual suspects went on to concentrate in this thread: So I bought an Axe Fx Ax8 and I have been profiling my preset as I make them...


    And @Dean_R: C'mon, me a control freak persona and in need of work on my sense of humor? How do you think you know me so 'well', with you being here for a mere 6 months?


  • I'm actually waiting to see the demo, I heard they will have video and audio clips that compare the AXE II models with the real amp that they claimed was modeled. Finally they're going to put to rest the accusations that all the modeling was based on Schematics. Holy S**ttt, we are finally going to see one of the amps that they claimed to have modeled modeled!!! I can't even type from the excitement! I await with bated breath 8o


    I personally couldn't find any pictures of the amps they claimed to have modeled when I was in the market for a modeler, but now I will be proven wrong when they show a video (no less) of one of the amps they modeled.(Sarcasm alert ) LOL


    Where did you read up on this? I've been saying that forever, especially the high gain amps don't match the real counterparts....if this was the case why have they been re tone matched/mimic'd or whatever the new catch phrase is this week?




    who? Scott?


    I dont believe he deletes negative axe posts. If he does, shame on him. I have a hard time believing that he does though. He seems like a solid dude.



    :S come one man....don't be so naive


  • ..


    And @Dean_R: C'mon, me a control freak persona and in need of work on my sense of humor? How do you think you know me so 'well', with you being here for a mere 6 months?


    Let people have their fun. "Do unto others as you want to be done unto you", if someone came to a thread that you started and categorized it as useless, I bet you, you would think they are rude and trying to control you. Remember most of comedy is based on real world situations, if those who own the AXE are the most vocal about it disliking being the subject of the joke, doesn't make the comedy and the joke what they really are, just jokes and comedy.


    Have you heard the awful things people say about line 6 in the spirit of fun and Jokes? I don't see anyone coming to object, because people look at it in a much less uptight manner like when the AXE FX is the subject of ridicule in the spirit of fun. Think about it Ingolf. Let's presume it's childish, so what's wrong if people want to be childish every once in a while. Let the children play.


    You say I have an agenda, I don't. I just don't like false advertising and yes I will make fun of it when a company claims to model real world amps yet the amps are nowhere to be seen or compared. That's the basic principle of being an educated consumer, don't lie with false advertisement and expect not to be made fun of . Clearly many educated consumers are smart enough to recognize when a company is lying and when a company like Kemper is not lying by demonstrating the proof to support the claims. Without support to the claims , they remain only claims with agenda to fool the unsuspecting consumer. Truth

    Edited once, last by Dean_R ().

  • Where did you read up on this? I've been saying that forever, especially the high gain amps don't match the real counterparts....if this was the case why have they been re tone matched/mimic'd or whatever the new catch phrase is this week?


    I was just joking and poking fun. There's still no pictures or Videos of the what they claim they modeled, that's why I used the word claim :D


  • No problem with that in general. ;)
    Still I stand with my assessment that this thread is useless, like all the others before.
    The only reason why this one hasn't gone down the drain completely is because the usual suspects went on to concentrate in this thread: So I bought an Axe Fx Ax8 and I have been profiling my preset as I make them...


    And @Dean_R: C'mon, me a control freak persona and in need of work on my sense of humor? How do you think you know me so 'well', with you being here for a mere 6 months?


    If by the usual suspects you mean me, I was going to start on this thread but when I last checked Dean still hadn't taken a stab at identifying which clips were Axe / KPA on the other. That said, where I do agree with him is that people should be allowed (with limits of the law and those falsely saying v4 has been posted!) to have their say. Even you had a chance to have your say and we all cheerfully listened. I think that community sometimes is glued together with stuff that isn't earth shatteringly interesting or useful but the humdrum of life. I mean how interesting would it be if this site was just limited to helping solve my KPA problems?

  • The best example I can give of this is a link to a satirical review hub about a t shirt--funny stuff--which illustrates what kind of things can be written on the web, sure it is a bit of trolling, immature, funny, but it is positive, and shows how easily hype can be generated, while boosting sales of this now famous t shirt. 5 stars, 1500 plus reviews :
    amazon.com/The-Mountain-Three-Short-Sleeve/dp/B002HJ377A



    Amaz...ing!
    Actually, reviews are +3000 now... And 40,000 found the first one "Useful". Loved it, thanks from me too :D

  • who? Scott?


    I dont believe he deletes negative axe posts. If he does, shame on him. I have a hard time believing that he does though. He seems like a solid dude.


    Scott doesn't delete posts simply because they are negative toward Fractal, and he doesn't use the forum to push any brand-Fractal or otherwise. He's actually extremely impartial and open-minded. The only people who have a beef with him are people that have gotten in trouble there, and I can say with complete confidence that they are almost always the source of the trouble, not innocent victims.

  • Quote

    Scott doesn't delete posts simply because they are negative toward Fractal, and he doesn't use the forum to push any brand-Fractal or otherwise. He's actually extremely impartial and open-minded. The only people who have a beef with him are people that have gotten in trouble there, and I can say with complete confidence that they are almost always the source of the trouble, not innocent victims.


    I've been reading TGP for many many years, and this is definitely not true. There is a bias towards Fractal on TGP (and against every other modeler). Both Scott and Alec (owner and moderator) are Fractal fan boys. It is subtle, but they are there at every turn to stick up for Fractal. They are walking billboards for the company. The most common response from them when they state their views is that it's "only my opinion" along with the cliched "gamechanger. " Yet the way it is phrased, it's almost stated as fact and that your opinions don't really mean much if it's against Fractal. It's true that they don't rag on Kemper. But they rarely give kudos to Kemper.


    Just read this very long (but entertaining!) thread and you'll begin to see the biases that people have -- including the owners and moderators of that forum.


    http://www.thegearpage.net/boa…er-axe-fx-debate.1411293/


    Summary: someone doesn't like the Axe-FX -- thinks Kemper is better. Says he owns Kemper, Axe-FX II, and Ultra. Scott as well as Cliff (Fractal owner) don't believe him -- call him a troll. He posts a photo which shows all 3 units as requested by Scott. They claim it's fake and go to great lengths to discredit him. Looks like a lynching. Neither take the high road in their approach. Turns out they are wrong and both have to apologize. Just goes to show how fast they are to be on the defensive when faced with any negativity towards Fractal -- a true symptom of fanboism. :)


  • Good grief, I remember that thread. It was epic. If anyone has the time, I recommend reading through that TGP linked thread, if for no other reason than to see how not to run a public guitar forum. In all fairness, the owner/admin (SP) did finally apologize, and his apology seemed sincere. Hopefully, it was a learning experience, and character forming, in a positive way.

    Edited once, last by Tritium ().

  • Not just TGP, the Axe forum is also an interesting place. A few weeks ago in reply to a kemper bashing comment that stated profiles are static and not tweakable I wrote a pretty objective comment about it being otherwise. I'm a registered member there since start, but the comment was removed without any warnings within minutes/hours.

  • Not just TGP, the Axe forum is also an interesting place. A few weeks ago in reply to a kemper bashing comment that stated profiles are static and not tweakable I wrote a pretty objective comment about it being otherwise. I'm a registered member there since start, but the comment was removed without any warnings within minutes/hours.


    Great point, Daniel. I respect the Axe-FX, and recognize it is a peer-class digital modeler. However, when I first began my research into the Kemper and Axe-FX, it was not long before I completely eliminated the Axe from my purchase consideration. A large part of that decision was the negative perception I developed after seeing how the owner conducted himself both on his own forum as well as a supposedly "neutral" forum such as The Gear Page. Again, no disrespect meant to any Axe owners (the Axe-FX II is a great unit). However, in my particular case, I chose not to patronize a company which conducts themselves so unprofessionally (at least IMHO). By comparison, Christoph Kemper and his company is the exact opposite -- a class act all the way.


    Since I feel the KPA to be the superior digital guitar amplifier solution, anyways...it certainly made my decision all the more easier. :D


    Cheers,
    John

  • Not just TGP, the Axe forum is also an interesting place. A few weeks ago in reply to a kemper bashing comment that stated profiles are static and not tweakable I wrote a pretty objective comment about it being otherwise. I'm a registered member there since start, but the comment was removed without any warnings within minutes/hours.


    Good example that for Mods it is possible to unfluence the atmospere in a forum. Pragmatic or manipulating. Polite or spiteful.


  • Scott thought that the one guy was a banned member who keeps creating alt accounts to stir up trouble, and it obviously affected his judgement in that thread. I think it was a learning experience for him, though, as his posts in recent times have been quite different. He did actually point out in that thread that he deliberately does not moderate in the digital section because he doesn't want people to think he's showing bias, so his intentions seem to be pretty honest.

  • Great point, Daniel. I respect the Axe-FX, and recognize it is a peer-class digital modeler. However, when I first began my research into the Kemper and Axe-FX, it was not long before I completely eliminated the Axe from my purchase consideration. A large part of that decision was the negative perception I developed after seeing how the owner conducted himself both on his own forum as well as a supposedly "neutral" forum such as The Gear Page. Again, no disrespect meant to any Axe owners (the Axe-FX II is a great unit). However, in my particular case, I chose not to patronize a company which conducts themselves so unprofessionally (at least IMHO). By comparison, Christoph Kemper and his company is the exact opposite -- a class act all the way.


    Since I feel the KPA to be the superior digital guitar amplifier solution, anyways...it certainly made my decision all the more easier. :D


    Cheers,
    John


    I actually felt the same way. With devices like the Axe-FX and KPA, software upgrades are a part of owning them, and after-the-purchase support is something that needs to be taken into consideration. I found the atmosphere in the KPA forum to be more comfortable FOR ME than what I saw in the Fractal forum, and it did have a bit of an influence in my decision to go with the Kemper. There are a few rabid fan boys here, but it's minor compared to what I see on the other forum. It doesn't help at all that so much stuff is deleted over there for whatever reason, they seem pretty quick to smash anything that they deem too negative. Over here everything is left alone and allowed to sort itself out, which just seems more "honest" to me.


  • If by the usual suspects you mean me..


    Hey, I didn't mean you, @SwAn1.
    That said, I know perfectly well the history of all the Axe jokes (and that they're kinda deserved the way the Axe has been constantly advertised). I have owned the Ultra and the II myself, too.
    All I wanna do as a contributor of this forum here (and this is the forum I deliberately have chosen as the main one I want to participate in) is that it is less 'fanboi-ish', less 'the grass is greener on my side' than other forums.
    Perhaps this is wishful thinking, but so be ist. ;)

  • I remember how a few years BK (Before Kemper), I was seriously gassing for an Axe FX. It was the cutting edge of guitar technology and compared to my Boss GT-8, was light years ahead.


    Cut forward to years later... Before I bought the Kemper, I was seriously evaluating the Axe until I chanced upon a few threads where people were talking about the Kemper. I checked it out and... better, definitely better.


    Like other users too, I won't be so quick to discredit the impact that the negative marketing Fractal and yes, TGP, do about other products. In that respect, I mean that it totally turned me off the product.


    In that respect, I agree with Ingolf. Let the product speak for itself rather than all of us act like rabid fanbois the minute there's a chance to take a dig at the Axe FX.


    Quantum whatchumacallit? Cool, but not for me, thanks.

  • The only real criticism I can level against fractal is not having a demo model in at least some of the larger chains, better yet with someone who likes/is familiar with it. One demo unit/ chain would not kill them. But from what I see here KPA also has this issue, many stores have it as special/web order now, and I saw it under glass in one store downtown... ppl just walked by it. A lot depends on the store I guess.
    But many stores put way more effort into selling amps/ cabs etc. There is some cynicism out there that amp and cab sales are more often driven by how they look. Helix went the shiny/sleek way. Nothing wrong with it imo, such things should look good, once they sound good.... many sparks there too however...


    guesstimate" values for any component at all when he could have actually measured them


    Because this is very hard to do. Static no load values do not relate to whats going on. By measuring you can be altering something. Temperature will change values. Having a complex signal going thru a system designed to copy, make it louder, and unique will change component values in real time. This is where any serious component modelling would start. Factor in current eddies etc. it gets complicated fast. Certainly possible, but all of these factors would need a lot more code and processing to cover it properly. Using ears and guesstimating cuts down on this a lot. I think i remember some discussion here about it being difficult or impossible to get separate values for the interaction between an amp and a speaker, and those can be viewed as only 2 components.



    Both products are pro gear, capable of great sounds in the right hands


    This statement just made this thread useful, encouraging people to check out the gear and see for themselves. Cooler heads prevail. Very to the point; is it right for you?


    Bulldozing Freedom of speech is not a joke and is despicable.


    This. freedom of speech= freedom of thought and the exchange of ideas. It gets very subtle and complex from here, but simple way of looking at it is anyone trying to control information you want to share, or are able to see is really after a method of controlling people.


    don't use social media


    I think this term has been diluted. a little off topic, but it is a sketchy buzzword. I dont use it either, since if a service is free, the product is you. besides, if the term is to make sense, it should not be in large centralized facilities, but on home pc's with ftp, p2p info sharing, and distributed computing to handle data. no need for huge $$ to run it with momentum. Those bright sparks could do much better using their skills in many other fields.


    Gandalf, thanks for the link. The reviews of that product are comedy gold. I must have spent an hour reading through them, and laughing my ass off. Good stuff


    Actually, reviews are +3000 now... And 40,000 found the first one "Useful". Loved it, thanks from me too


    Yw. Glad you guys liked it. :) Modern satire. Wasn't sure how many ppl here knew about it so might as well link. I was hoping it would help some people that can get offended by trolls. Reading that will help for sure, especially when i see comments about people having a hard time not responding to trolling etc. It is such an old technique, I remember reading about it in a police interrogation manual a while ago. getting a rise out of random ppl on the net is not exactly an achievement tho. Trolling is also a kind of lazy fishing, quiet slow boat, you don't even need to hold the rod etc. Luckily this place doesn't have any real trolls, just the odd runt. Why get upset? Life is too short to peel grapes... But wait, there's more ;) check out the tuscan whole milk one with the redone raven take. the cloverdale rabbit one is good too, but not if you are sensitive. It kind of puts web reviews and such things into a new perspective.


    I've pretty much given up posting on TGP. Too many moments where I roll my eyes, but don't you dare disagree with them. It's the Holier Than Thou forum


    Ya i saw some of the ridiculous flame wars there. I was one of those things where it could not be helped. Where you are laughing at someone for being angry, and the angrier they get the funnier it becomes. There were a few of these internet battles. Haven't posted there iirc. Wonder if they would appreciate my humour about their ad copy. I noticed they did take down the alien picture on the fas site. I can't be blamed for poking fun at that, whoever did that alien--brilliant.
    Still find it hard to believe that they are so heavy handed with people there, but i hear it a lot. Doesn't make sense to run a fake site like that, it would seem more like an infomercial. mebbe I will hop over there and ask them whats going on, in a nice way. I'm curious about the reaction...


    Even if the joke is on me sometimes, I don't mind if it make someone laugh


    A very good way to be, never take anything too seriously, especially yourself. just take things only as seriously as needed, if needed. Making ppl laugh is a wonderful thing, and a real gift if you are good at it.


    Still I stand with my assessment that this thread is useless, like all the others before.


    I totally get where you are coming from, and in some ways even agree, but not all. There is nothing wrong if you don't find any of this funny, everyone has a different sense of humour, very few ppl appreciate all forms of it. Imho almost everyone here has a healthy sense of humour. And I would not call you a control freak by any stretch if that is any consolation. I do think you are more pragmatic, possibly more focused, and probably more effective than average.


    Sure the thread title was provocative, that is plain to see, harder to measure intentions imo. I can see the case for "other camp" tho...could also just be sarcasm in response to the situation.


    I am not sure how the comparison to the axe f8 thread where it is getting profiled, or tweaked to sound the same, or other more sound oriented issues. Those green leds caused a stir little while back, but instead of it being a dig or pinching an idea etc. it seemed more like a subtle hint from fractal that this unit would work well with a kpa. It was mostly well focused, except for some OT stuff about Carrie Underwood, I didn't know who that was so I googled the name and saw a bright sunny beautiful woman that is also a pop star. I didn't give a listen, but also don't feel like my time was wasted. The picture of the porta axe case seemed ok in comparison.. and the argument of backline, crew etc was not really compelling, even tho the poster was trying to present a good argument. It was a thread about a kpa and axf8. Not a pro sound crew, along with an even bigger, pr, ad team, image specialists, nutritionist, the list goes on. Truth be told its the ad/pr team's job to fill those seats, and their ass if they don't.


    But it does seem like a good thread, and I hope deadpan profiles the living snot out of that thing for those who are not getting it, but may want some of the tones it has on offer.


    Where I think this thread is useful is in metadata. This is done here in a light hearted way, with all opinions welcome, critical or otherwise. There don't seem to be issues or allegations of bias on this forum, but such things are freely discussed about other forums, impartial or otherwise. Information is looked at from many viewpoints, some dealing with other gear, or what is said elsewhere about this product and community. It may not be completely serious, but it is critical to a degree of validity.


    What i think is the most useful thing about a thread like this is anyone who wants to can post their views, what they like about one forum, what they don't like about others in a casual way letting people be themselves, and informally defining a very general consensus about what we want in our forum.


    I think you kind of addressed your own concerns about this thread in a roundabout way, about it going nowhere which was a fair warning.
    Sometimes it's the journey, and I would not call it a repeat of other threads "dealing with *that* same topic" there was more to it, open assessment of other threads, sites etc.
    a mature, if not serious heads up of what is happening for anyone who wants to know.
    just as you mentioned anyone who wanted to expressed their opinion, keeping it in one thread, op-ed, chronicled info that can't hurt.
    This also leads into a thread like this dying naturally.


    Edit : P.S. if not this wall of text should kill it ;)


  • Hey, I didn't mean you, @SwAn1.
    That said, I know perfectly well the history of all the Axe jokes (and that they're kinda deserved the way the Axe has been constantly advertised). I have owned the Ultra and the II myself, too.
    All I wanna do as a contributor of this forum here (and this is the forum I deliberately have chosen as the main one I want to participate in) is that it is less 'fanboi-ish', less 'the grass is greener on my side' than other forums.
    Perhaps this is wishful thinking, but so be ist. ;)


    In that case lets just pretend I didn't make that post! :) Thanks for letting me know. I know I can be a pain in the arse ...