Ethics and kemper! henning pauly with his axe in the throat

  • Hm... am I the only one who thinks his thoughts are legit? While I come to another conclusion as he does, I have thought about this, too. I also think that he is way too obsessed over the subject, nevertheless I feel it's not fair to bash him all the way. As for Jojo, he states that he works for them and tries to change their approach into the direction of an own product line.


    Again, I don't agree to his arguments and find hundreds against him. I just think the question in general is legit.

    Gear: Strats & KPA. Plug Ins: Cubase, NI, iZotope, Slate, XLN, Spectrasonics.
    Music: Song from my former band: vimeo.com/10419626[/media][/media][/media] Something new on the way...

  • Hm... am I the only one who thinks his thoughts are legit? While I come to another conclusion as he does, I have thought about this, too. I also think that he is way too obsessed over the subject, nevertheless I feel it's not fair to bash him all the way. As for Jojo, he states that he works for them and tries to change their approach into the direction of an own product line.


    Again, I don't agree to his arguments and find hundreds against him. I just think the question in general is legit.


    Haven't watched the video - but of course he is entitled to his opinion, and you to yours as well. I don't agree, but I think the question is a valid one to ponder.


    As always, legality is defineable, whereas morality and ethics are subjective, and we are each entitled to our opinion - and shouldn't be bashed or ridiculed for it.

  • Why isn't this guy having a pop at Fractal?


    This is what I wrote in my comment on the 2nd Youtube video:


    If you're talking about ethical business practices as it relates to the methodology used in modeling and profiling amps, the approach taken by Fractal and Line6 (examining ACTUAL amp circuits and replicating them at the component level in the digital domain) is FAR MORE QUESTIONABLE ethical practice than Kempers approach, which is far more novel and inventive.... examining the behavior of not just an entire circuit, but an entire signal chain. I don't have a problem with either approach, but Kempers approach is the one that is the least infringing, from an IP standpoint, if you look at it with any degree of logic.


    This is very similar to Harley suing Honda for "stealing" it's well-known "Harley sound" -- which failed, of course.

  • Well, not only are modellers great adverts for tube amps, but this dude's videos are fantastic ads for Kemper.


    I'd like to think he's intelligent enough to have thought of this; the more of a fuss he kicks up, the more folks' curiosity about the Kemper will be piqued.

  • I love a supposed liberal point of view telling me how wrong MY choices are....non sense and total viewing time between the 3 videos 6 minutes of time spent hurting my ears vs playing my junk digital replicator haha!! Thanks buddy but I'm happy you are not...if it doesn't sound "quite like the amp" we've stole nothing. Thanks to the Kemper team for a great product!!

  • Were sales of valve amps dropping through the floor then I might shed a tear but let's face it, they're not! I have 3 valve amps and a Kemper. It's a tool and it just happens to be perfect for my application, precise, sonic versatility across many genres. A cover players holy grail!


  • I like this sentence :thumbup:


    IMHO the flavour is in the interpretation. All are subjective, dependent upon who´s bashing the IP hammer on the anvil... And who´s the judge...
    Take the latest death in the US constitutional court for example: Hated liberals, ES cells, loved the death penalty... :wacko: It´s all in the eye of the beholder...

  • IMHO the flavour is in the interpretation. All are subjective, dependent upon who´s bashing the IP hammer on the anvil... And who´s the judge...
    Take the latest death in the US constitutional court for example: Hated liberals, ES cells, loved the death penalty... :wacko: It´s all in the eye of the beholder...


    For Heaven's sake. The poor man isn't even in the grave, yet. Can we keep personal politics and thinly veiled character attacks outside of this forum, please.

  • I have thousands of profiles. If I didn't have a Kemper I'd still own one tube amp, which is all I own now. I wouldn't be playing a $3000 tube amp, nor would I own the dozen or so amps that I actually use in the profile world. Because the availability to actually try out such an expensive piece of equipment using my personal guitar and pedals is limited to what's available at Guitar Center where the sales folks get snippy if you have an amp louder than 2 for more than a few seconds. I only use $3000-amp profiles because they're basically free and I can try them out for hours on end at low volumes in the comfort and convenience of my home. Before Kemper, I owned one decent working-man's amp for live use and filled in my need for other tones when recording with a few extra OD pedals and perhaps a amp plugin. That's what I'd still be using if not for Kemper. So if anything, the profiler hasn't deceased my amp purchases, though it has decreased my purchase and need of OD pedals.


    If anything, owning the Kemper makes me more likely to buy one of these high-end amps. I might be willing to shell out the dough at some point for a certain Evil Robot or Morgan, as I've actually interacted with profiles enough to know that I'd really love using those amps, day in and day out.

  • For Heaven's sake. The poor man isn't even in the grave, yet. Can we keep personal politics and thinly veiled character attacks outside of this forum, please.


    @Tritium Excuse me. That was a US politics Quote from NYT certainly not my personal opinion, and that was not a character attack, thinly veiled or otherwise. Things are just subjective out there. Chill Bud. :)

  • I would like to know what do you guys think about this topic seriously speaking


    Interesting thread, someone here also posted that ethics is a big word. It is a very complex field of study. This raises the question of why ask people what they think, then post a video that starts with a sort of leading question, to imply kpa is not as good/able to profile accurately etc.
    Non sequitur, and you should demonstrate that you can tell the difference, if you want to not just make assumptions then follow up by a sort of loaded question. about stealing sounds, and downloading music (more a red herring, than a comparison; cd cartels/greed did this, itunes seems to be fine, artists still underpaid.. some artists put their work up free, got noticed, got good gigs, kinda like radio payola but free and ethical).


    You then load the question even more, about a 30 day legal return law--most stores are happy to do this freely, and have demo models etc.
    Then going into 8/10 amps being returned (my guess resold later, you neglect this, or what about the 2 killer ones?) then use all of this stealing music build up to imply kpa users are doing this in droves. starting an ethical discussion with thieves will probably get you robbed or stabbed etc.


    If you want to have a discussion about ethics, don't start it with very unethical loaded questions. After hearing this, and reading the responses here I think you got much, much better answers than you deserved for that intro, or the "questions" you came up with. Lot of good posts and ideas here, and a far better understanding of ethics than you started out with.


    Hm... am I the only one who thinks his thoughts are legit?


    No, there are some legit concerns. The presentation narrows it so badly, that the issue gets buried, and people responding are pushed in a very certain direction. Ingolf nailed it pretty well saying he refused to be tied to his ethics (or something similar).


    I will answer your big question about if it is ethical to buy an amp with an intention of returning it, and you may be surprised by it. But in return I want you to answer a question of mine. When will you stop asking loaded questions (see what just happened there? my loaded question was ethical because it was based on something true)


    wait for it, wait for it, yes it is absolutely ethical to buy an amp with the intention of returning it. Everyone here does it with any gear.


    Lets remove the idea of the profiler for a second, stealing and all of this. I think it is fair to say that for a long time everyone here, and most other places I can think of went out and bought an amp with the hopes of of it being better/different, and with full intent of returning it, if it was not--it is the mark of a mature mind to be able to hold 2 opposing and contrary thoughts at once...
    You can' limit it to just eu, online, but small stores, chains, even personal techs, everything. All of these retailers know that x will be returned, the smart ones learn their customers,give them a good return policy, get them what they like and they return to buy more things.


    Enter the Kemper.


    This is where you really broke your own argument. Easily pointed out that you can get a profile with a mouse click and a few ducats if needed. Rm, or even ask in a thread, ppl will give ideas, even competing commercial profilers will recommend others if they have a better product. Pretty cool imo.


    Even if you could not get it online, only in a store, nobody is gonna buy they latest shiny $$$$ amp thinking wow, gotta have that crappy sound.8/10 returns? Also if the kpa was not as good as those 2/10 magic amps, that totally owned it, guess what would be getting sold.
    Folk here bounce around with tube an kpa all the time, either selling, or as you mentions some dude saying kpa is good, then why play a tube amp on stage. because he wanted to? why imply some sort of obligation to stick to one camp? A while ago my lil bro came by and noticed a new 100w tube head I just got. Right away he laughs and says, you know digital is better, made me laugh too, plug in some guitars, have a few beers; NOT coffee, and more laughs.


    Either kpa = tube, kpa>tube or kpa< tube. Your statement was kpa><tube. Es macht nichts.


    Food comes first, then moral. (Bertolt Brecht)


    Love that guy :)


    Ogre thought the best place known to man
    In this world was the lavatory pan


    That was a place to set the cheeks aglow
    With (rock) stars above and excrement below
    ......


    Then you realize just how far you've gone
    Using the lavatory pan to eat on ;)


    Henning, I'm not saying don't ask difficult questions, or even controversial ones, or be firm in your views. If you want to start an ethical discussion, at least learn or find someone who understands ethics, and who can present it in a way that includes everyone. Hire a writer to supervise you when you use words and stuff. You seem far more concerned with money, getting paid, than any music, gear, art, or ethics. This is also telling.



    That subterranean homesick blue fireside chat ain't gonna cut it .... you need to work on your image... it's getting old.



    If you want to convince the world you are a producer you need to step up your game... at the very least, a diamond encrusted Bentley, at least one mansion, and bikini girls with machine guns kickin' it by the pool.

  • Quote

    Again, I don't agree to his arguments and find hundreds against him. I just think the question in general is legit.


    So do I.Honestly.I said "dont feed the troll" because it is obvious that this is just another shitstorm against Kemper for pure "commercial reasons" and NOT because it is not a good idea to talk about ethics in music in a time when many young kids believe they must behave like gangsta rappers to be "successfull" in life.


    It is legit to talk about if all the new technologies are "good" or "bad".Eeverybody talks about ethics when it comes to medicine (genetics) or science in general.Why not in arts;I can remember an occasion when I went "mad" at a guy here who (in my eyes) tried to convince anyone in this blog that FX-loops,midi,UI,and shiny coloured "scribble strips" and whatever are at least as important as sound.Today I regret this but not to the degree I changed my mind in this issue.I still "kill" when I meet people who try to say that in music anything could be more (or even as) important to WHAT YOU HEAR.I get sick in these cases and close to loose my mind in anger..in music absolutely NOTHING is more important than music.How it sounds & feels.


    It is absolutely legit and we should have a serious discussion (here in this blog and as musicians everywhere) about what is still the most important issues in music and WHAT you need to play it.We know what has been "important" in popular music since the 50s till today.What will be tomorrow the most important things we have to learn ourselves and also to teach to the young lads;


    Is it not sad that in most mainstream media the "air guitar championships" get 100x more attention than real talented guitar players;How did it come so far;How did we reached this point;In the last 20 years there has been a huge "campaign" to kill music at it roots (the need for hours long practicing,seeing music just as a way to express yourself without the wish to become a "rockstar" or to get a "career" etcm,etc) and to establish (as I love to name it) "the rule of mediocracy".


    It is more cool to do "air guitar" than to play the real thing for example..I can show you at least a hundred articles in the biggest mainstream media where you will read about what I just said.But did you read about any young rock guitar player;Or rock drummers;


    This is were (imo) "ethics" start.What does our society teach about "playing music";In other threads we have talked about some of this issue.Classical musicians who are not able to "play out of their soul" without out leadsheets.Fantastic Jazz-players who will deny to play any realbook-stuff in a different way "it is allowed"..cant remember how many times some jazz-guy had a go against me (or other guys) because I wanted to play some realbook stuff just with distortion and extreme bendings..and we talking about "the elite" here,right;The guys who "studied music" to become "professional musicians"..the future teachers of how many kids who dream to play music;


    Our society has made music a monster.How many musicians for example had never a look into modes for the one and only reason they believe it is "much to difficult" and some sort of "science";There is so much work in discussing "ethics" in music.And there is no others than us to start this discussion in the right way.This way is sure not the way of this guy in these three vids.


    Ugh..sorry again for one more rant.

  • People do anything in order to emerge from the average and get some exposure. Sadly, the most successful ones are usually those who stir the pot and bark the loudest...


    As for the OP's serious question, a sound can't be patented and this is a fact also supported by past sentences. The KPA copies a sound but doesn't clone any amp, in fact it can't react and work like the amp does once the profile has been loaded (the knobs don't react likewise etc.).


    I'd also be (mostly) surprised if Eng. Kemper had started such a project without taking any preliminary precaution and information and thinking it over LOL



    "Sound can't be patented."
    Harley Davidson motorcycles tried.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jun/21/business/fi-43145

  • And failed.



    Rightfully so.
    I remember when it was going on. Downright silly.
    Although,
    I had a 2003 Honda Sabre.
    I could be wrong but I believe the earlier models of this bike had a different crank and all to try and match the Harley Lopey sound.
    It failed So they changed it to something more "stable".
    I believe it had vibration and noise
    problems. :)