Ethics and kemper! henning pauly with his axe in the throat

  • As far as the ethics go.
    I do not and will never pirate a movie, song, software or a game. I know of people that do and I blast them whenever it is brought up.


    I did get caught up in the Napster thing though. This is of course was when digital downloads were new and exploding on the scene. I along with many others did not know the direction things were going with this new consumer technology.


    Once I got a grasp of what it was truly about I stopped.
    Besides I was a big fan of Metallica and I didn't want them mad at
    me. :)



    I see the Kemper, along with modelers sort of like a long drawn out Napster. Something newer and in search
    of a direction.
    All I can say is I really like the KPA. I have found that I like Boogie amps. Never played one before having the KPA.
    Will I now buy one?
    No, not really unless I got a stupid deal on a used one.

    I couldn't help but wonder, since I first got my KPA , what will become of amps?
    I guess the future may be back to modeling but more as their own circuit creations in a software package.



    The Kemper is a just a point in time that can take advantage of what has been already created.
    Way down the road it will just be a collection of the classics.
    If and or when conventional amps become extinct It will all be software based.
    Guitars will change too. No more strings to hurt your fingers. :)




    .

  • @Nikos be careful with talking about not feeding the troll thing. In a past Kemper life I was banned for saying DNF against someone vociferously extoling the virtues of the LINE 6 in the other gear section and saying Kemper wasn't the real deal. He baited me and provoked me to respond. This person must have made a stink somewhere in the internal workings of the Kemper clan, and I found myself locked out of the forum. I still have my Kemper, but it's frustrating not to be able to contribute to the Owners' section of the forum. :wacko:

  • It is absolutely legit and we should have a serious discussion (here in this blog and as musicians everywhere) about what is still the most important issues in music and WHAT you need to play it.We know what has been "important" in popular music since the 50s till today.What will be tomorrow the most important things we have to learn ourselves and also to teach to the young lads;


    I feel your frustration and I appreciate that the facts you mentioned are a real concern for you. There is a lot of truth in your words. But I believe that there will always be people that know what music is about. There are so many young players on Youtube, it's almost scary. Some might call them shredderkids, but they are passionate and get their stuff together which I think is a good thing and a good sign. Search the internet for music and you will find a huge scene doing creative stuff besides the mainstream. So, not all hope is lost ;) .


    As for the guy in the vids: I have watched all of these, yes, took some time. In the end the question is if one believes him saying that it's in no way about sound or digital vs. analog or bashing the KPA in general. But he is getting constantly ascribed to this. I don't know enough about this guy (and I don't care enough actually) so I would not presume to say so. This is the reaction you see in every forum of any manufacturer when it comes to critics similar to these. It was said, that he does it the wrong way - Ok. But I think fighting his arguments with knockout arguments like 'he's only dissing the KPA/doing it for money/etc' is the wrong way, too, and I think most people here can do better. Some haven't even watched the vids (2. is where he disagrees to these arguments) but are bashing him for the same reasons. I mean, what is this? 8o


    I personally don't give a F if someone likes the gear that I like or not. It could never ever bug me so much that I got mad at this guy. That's why I was focused on the topic he made those vids for. It's my way to deal such debates as a recipient and it's the way I get usually the most out of other people's opinion. And this leads me (me personally) to the fact, that the question in general is legit. I saw the first vid before it was posted here, and didn't even consider it worth being shared here. When I entered this forum, I posted a vid of my old band, did not get a reply. This thread has 6 sides going on (now see your post^^). Which is fine, but if people like to discuss his vids, it might be more effective to concentrate on his concern instead of simply bashing him. Of course, there have been good arguments as well, but this should be the majority of answers.


    Now I did write much more than I wanted to, but hey. So, I wish you a fine day, and I will promise to stay true to music no matter how many of his vids I will watch in the future :) .

    Gear: Strats & KPA. Plug Ins: Cubase, NI, iZotope, Slate, XLN, Spectrasonics.
    Music: Song from my former band: vimeo.com/10419626[/media][/media][/media] Something new on the way...

    Edited once, last by Fireloogie ().

  • it is not a good idea to talk about ethics ..(Rest canceled) .


    I shortened the sentence, because I want not make a comment for a certain topic. (There are so many which could be mentioned)
    Ethic describes (beside others) a common understanding of behavior in a society based on so called moral aspects. It is an important factor for living together in a big society and it is mostly an ideal.
    But very often ethics is used to express a opinion.
    For me it makes no sense to talk about ethics and than express an opinion.
    I feel manipulated if I get a signal "You are not part of the society if you do not agree a certain opinion." Or (even worse) I feel that personal interests stand beside.
    Opinion is personal property and can be published, defended and argued in the limits, which are defined by ethics and/or laws.
    Ethic is not personal property. But I agree, ordering an Amp and send back after profiling is ethical wrong for me also.


    Did I ever say I love my Kemper and the possibilities to conquer a new world of sounds with at least not so much Money? ;)

    Edited 2 times, last by Sharry ().

  • Sometimes when a point is trying to be made, the person tries to be so clear and explicit, that they get off the original point and it becomes rambling. Other times, it sounds as though they are proselytizing.
    I believe Henning talked himself into a hole.


    Concerning stealing, as I interpret Henning referring to it, It's no more stealing a amp's sound then someone using their smartphone to capture a few seconds of a band's performance on it in a club.


    Once a product has been sold into the real world, I don't see how it's possible for the amp company to re-coop against anything the amp is used for. They got their money, and no paperwork needed to be signed prior to sale of the amp, for what it's intended use could be, with limitations.


    Sorry Henning, no cigar this time. ;)


  • The Kemper is a just a point in time that can take advantage of what has been already created.:)


    On another note for the future of KPA > Take morphing to another step which would be to take snapshots of a particular amp from clean to high gain and have the KPA figure out the inbetweens to get a more realistic digital print of what the real amp would do when decreasing / increasing gain. All part of the new profiling process. KPA OS 6.0

  • Zapman, is that desirable...maybe not in all cases. The gain of the KPA is somewhat normalized to get the same amount of saturation for every profile. So while the kpa responds correctly to changing the guitars volume at the gain setting captured from profiling, you can still get a pristine clean by dropping KPA Gain all the way to 0, whereas the actual amp may be still dirty at the lowest gain setting where theres still volume.

  • Zapman, is that desirable...maybe not in all cases. The gain of the KPA is somewhat normalized to get the same amount of saturation for every profile. So while the kpa responds correctly to changing the guitars volume at the gain setting captured from profiling, you can still get a pristine clean by dropping KPA Gain all the way to 0, whereas the actual amp may be still dirty at the lowest gain setting where theres still volume.


    Not sure if it's desirable so to speak in my description. Just read a lot on hear where gain structure works better decreasing and not increasing as to what the real amp would do. Point was just combining snapshots of the profiled amp in different stages to now make the profile even more authentic to how the original profiled amp would react to different settings, instead of having "1" snapshot in time. If that makes some sense, more realistic means even more ethics questions. Just rambling....................

  • Quote

    In a past Kemper life I was banned for saying DNF against someone vociferously extoling the virtues of the LINE 6 in the other gear section and saying Kemper wasn't the real deal. He baited me and provoked me to respond. This person must have made a stink somewhere in the internal workings of the Kemper clan, and I found myself locked out of the forum.


    Humm..while I dont rule out the possibility that we talk about the same line6-guy(actually sounds very similiar to my case) I find it hard to believe that he could influence anyone at Kemper to ban you.If so..I am not married to anyone anywhere in the internet.So any blog is free to ban me if they think I have bad habits (and I know I have) or I am "politicial incorrect" which is ofcourse true since I am a musician.. :D


    No sweat..


    Quote

    I feel your frustration and I appreciate that the facts you mentioned are a real concern for you. There is a lot of truth in your words. But I believe that there will always be people that know what music is about. There are so many young players on Youtube, it's almost scary. Some might call them shredderkids, but they are passionate and get their stuff together which I think is a good thing and a good sign. Search the internet for music and you will find a huge scene doing creative stuff besides the mainstream. So, not all hope is lost


    Yes.And there are many,many people out there who really love music.Hope is never lost.. ;)


    As for the "shredderkids"..some of them are my students.. :D


    Sad thing is only a few of them have a band.I chase my students to find a band and to do less youtube but most of these kids tell me that this is not as easy as we,the older generations were used to.For many reasons.Maybe true;


    @Sharry


    Ofcourse you are absolutely right and it is always good for everyone to know what you try to describe.All I would like to ad is that some "ethics" are written in every heart of a "healthy mind".Only sick persons with a "genetical default" cant feel compassion for example.They can do horrible things without to feel anything.Sure you have heard about this issue.But for most people "ethics" in its purest form do exist in most crucial parts of our lifes.For example we two and I guess nobody or you & me know would argue about "value of life" or helping each other in emergency situations.Has this nothing to do with "ethics";


    In music we have similiar "values" between musicians.Anyone who really loves music for example would never try to do anything that would harm these values.I just never experienced this.For example I did met musicians who envied very much each other but in the end the love for music made them play/jam together like this envy did not exist.Music in this case was always "holy ground".They/we supported each other in the best way while playing together..Ofcourse after that again (down from the stage)they/we did bitch one against the other.. ^^


    Whenever some musician I met did something very ugly it was always obvious that he did not honoured the "ethics of music" cause he did not really loved it.At least this is my experience.For me this is indeed easy as that.Therefore "ethics" in music for me are not that much bound to "opinion".If you "really love it" you will honour it.But we can discuss this for hours I guess..


    greetings

  • @Nikos be careful with talking about not feeding the troll thing. In a past Kemper life I was banned for saying DNF against someone vociferously extoling the virtues of the LINE 6 in the other gear section and saying Kemper wasn't the real deal. He baited me and provoked me to respond. This person must have made a stink somewhere in the internal workings of the Kemper clan, and I found myself locked out of the forum. I still have my Kemper, but it's frustrating not to be able to contribute to the Owners' section of the forum. :wacko:


    I think Kemper is forgiving.


    You should message them and plead your case to be unbanned.

  • I think it's perfectly ethical to use Kemper and even share profiles. I don't think it's ethical to buy and amp for the purpose of profiling it and returning. And no, it isn't the same thing as buying an amp knowing you might return it if you end up not liking it. Because in that instance, you were at least buying it with the intention of possibly keeping it, knowing that the only way to really make a decision on it was to put it through its paces in real use. Whereas buying just to profile and return, you had no intention of keeping it. '


    In this instance, you're costing someone money. The store has to give you your money back. They now have a used amp to resell Perhaps they can themselves pawn it off as new (which brings into question their ethics BTW) or if they are honest, it gets listed as a "open box special" or something. Plus you have created extra work for them.


    Buying a amp with the intention of profiling and returning is no different than buying an amp for a big gig or recording session with the intention of returning it. If you think that is unethical to do that, the same goes for buying for the sake of profiling.


    Nevertheless, I don't see the Kemper hurting amp sales even in this case. It may have an effect on the return policy of music stores though.


  • Adopt, adapt, improve. (Round Tablers´ motto). Morality aside, in the case of any objective or majority perceived disruptive technology, legislation has to be adapted in the interests of all users of the community perhaps... I´ll get my coat...

  • I built a radio telescope. Recorded the sounds of the universe, played them back to people , have i pirated the universe, omfg. Im a nice guy. Not a criminal. I wont survive prison , mercy please.

    2005 gibson lp standard faded/frankenstein tele->kemper->adam a3x/LD systems mon 121

  • I was going to stay out of this... Remarks here are only in regard to the ethics question, not the integrity, performance or desirability of The coolest piece of gear I've ever owned!!


    Although I agree that the question concerning the "ethics of profiling" is one that may need to be addressed, I disagree entirely with any conclusion that it is "stealing".


    As several people have already mentioned the KPA only "clones" a particular moment in time. All conditions present in that moment are, just as with a photograph, ultimately crucial. Amp settings, cab, mic placement, the room, etc. Not mention the outboard specifics of the session (preamps, processing, blah...) and the skill and experience of the profiler. Snap. Just like a photograph, there's your "moment". From there, although it is possible to fairly approximate some of the amps behavior with the available control set, just like the photo, you can only go so far before the soul of the moment is no longer present. To capture the entire soul of the amp you could work for an infinite number of lifetimes trying to snap every possible combination of settings and the result would still not be a clone. It will be a collection of representative photographs. Reproducing the amps DNA using the KPA's current technology is impossible.

    Fats


    Art is not a competition

  • I think the Kemper is bound to impact amp sales (as is Line 6's gear and the Axe FX). Let's face it if these things didn't exist I'd have an amp right now. I'd probably have an expensive one at that Mesa or Diezel or something.


    It's a shame ultimately we're all part of the same 'family' without wishing to sound too cheesy, I'd rather amp manufacturers continue with their success but as profiling and sim technology proliferates and becomes perfect as it most definitely will (imagine what we will see in 5-10 years time) I can see the sad demise of both the amp AND pedal industries one day....

  • You're forgetting about Modeling AMPS, but even without that, AMPS aren't going anywhere just like acoustic guitars didn't disappear because electric guitars were invented or because line 6 variax or roland modeling guitars has acoustic models.

  • have we seen an amp market crisis because of the KPA? no
    the number of amp manufacturers around the globe has been growing exponentially over the years. for sure a recession will come and it will not be due to the KPA.
    do we see the change in market coming? not sure. I myself know much more amp brands and models since I own the KPA, and some I'd really wanna own.


    rigs are snapshots and nothing but copies. clone amps are copies, clone component-based modellers also are. these will be taken to court way before the KPA.


    ethics is a point of view. each one has its perception. opening a debate is fair. keeping blocked positions videos after videos rejecting others vision makes you a cunt.

  • have we seen an amp market crisis because of the KPA? no
    the number of amp manufacturers around the globe has been growing exponentially over the years. for sure a recession will come and it will not be due to the KPA.
    do we see the change in market coming? not sure. I myself know much more amp brands and models since I own the KPA, and some I'd really wanna own.


    rigs are snapshots and nothing but copies. clone amps are copies, clone component-based modellers also are. these will be taken to court way before the KPA.


    ethics is a point of view. each one has its perception. opening a debate is fair. keeping blocked positions videos after videos rejecting others vision makes you a cunt.


    @pamplemousse I didn't know you could get a pussy so easily... Language please gents... =O


    As for suing I think there is a difference between a clone and a modeller. Sure, a clone is so similar to the original hardware, but with software, now that's quite another IP issue...