Just bought a Kemper - need some help

  • Hi Guys,
    This post is long and I apologize, but I'd love some guidance here. I've been following this forum for over a year trying to read as much as I can about the Kemper PA. I've been very hesitant about buying one because I've been EXTREMELY skeptical (and still am) that it can actually sound as good as a regular tube amp. I know that's all subjective, and I know that the Kemper is supposed to sound like the final recorded versions of a mic'd up amp, so I won't get too deep into my skepticism in this thread.


    Anyway, I finally decided to take the plunge. I ordered the non-powered Kemper with the controller from Guitar Center and will have it in a few days. Before I ask my questions, here's some basic info. I play in a rock cover band (not metal). We do a lot of the typical top 40 rock stuff (Shinedown, Van Halen, STP, Alice In Chains, Bon Jovi, etc.). So the Kemper appeals to me because if it can do what it claims, I'd be able to start carrying a lot less equipment. Right now, I'm using a Mesa Roadster, two 1x12 Mesa Thiel cabs, a G-System and a PedalTrain Terra pedalboard that literally weighs 60+ lbs (and that's without a carrying case). Here are my questions:

    • Which tube power amp would you recommend buying? I know many on this forum say that you should use SS power amps, but I have NEVER found a SS power amp that I've liked; which is exactly why I chose not to buy the powered version of the Kemper. I was looking at buying a Fryette Power Station, but can't find any available anywhere, new or used. So are there any tube power amps out there that'd you'd recommend, and why?
    • My main use for the Kemper will be live gigs. I hardly ever record anything. So 95% of the time, it'll be for live gigs. And here's where my skepticism comes into play. I simply flat out don't believe that the Kemper can sound like a full kickass tube amp on stage. I know they're supposed to be used with FRFR monitors for ideal sounds. But any time I've ever heard a modeling amp through any kind of monitor (even DXR 10s), they sound so lifeless, harsh, brittle, stale, etc., that I wonder what people are thinking when they say it sounds good. I even went over to a friend's place yesterday and heard his Kemper being run through his Friedman ASM-12 and as soon as he hit one of his crunch rigs, I thought to myself "Yep, there's that classic 'modeler' tone that has no life, way too much low end and reminds me of the old Boss Metal-Zone stomp boxes". He said the patches were from when he profiled his Friedman BE100. So, MAYBE what I didn't like was the sound of his profiles. But the skeptic in me says it's more likely the digital sound of the Kemper. The Friedman ASM-12 had MORE than enough volume and actually did a great job of replicating the "amp in the room" feel. It was the sound I hated.


      So, after that long-winded story, what would you guys recommend to use for speakers? Ideally, I'd like to play through something that would allow me to hear exactly (or really close) to what is coming through the PA out front. I know in order to do that, I'd have to use FRFR, correct? But that leads me back to the issue above with it sounding so lifeless. And even if I did find a FRFR monitor that I liked the sound of, and I sent the signal direct to FOH, I'm assuming even that setup isn't going to be all that easy to work with because the sound man would then have to constantly be trying to re-work my sound into the mix with each different rig (or amp) that I use. That becomes even more of an issue for the gigs where we run our own sound from the stage. I'm wondering if the better solution and better sound would be if I used a tube power amp (hence question #1 above) and run that through a 2x12 cab. It would be a more traditional route. If I were to go that route, which 2x12 cab would you recommend, or which speakers? I know if I go that route, whatever cab I use would color the sound of the profiles a bit, which kind of stinks. But if I can get a seriously kick-ass handful of basic tones (low gain, high gain, clean, clean Fender-ish tone, and a ripping solo tone) then I'd be happy with that and could adjust from there.

    So that's where I'm at. I want to be able to hit the ground running with this thing as soon as I get it this weekend. I have a few options (buy my friend's Friedman ASM-12 for $650, buy a Yamaha DXR-10 for $600, or buy a tube power amp and use regular guitar cabs. I'll be open to trying the Mesa 1x12 Thiel cabs since I already have them, but I'm not expecting them to sound the way I want. For distorted stuff, they're fine. But I doubt I'd be able to get that really bluesy Fender clean tone from them.

  • Since you're mainly buying it for live use and not recording, I recommend using Power amp with regular guitar cabinets then disable the cab in the Kemper.


    Utilize the new Direct profiles as those are supposed to be more authentic for this kind of setup because the direct amp is separated from the virtual cab much better than earlier versions than 3.0 (or whenever direct profiling was introduced)


    I'm sure those who use it with regular guitar cabinets will chime in.

  • Thanks Dean. I'll definitely check those out. You mentioned that they are new profiles. Do you happen to know if there are a good amount of high quality Direct profiles available for download/purchase? I'm mainly looking for the standards like a Friedman BE, some Fender clean and bluesy stuff, and some Marshalls.


    Also, do you have any opinions on which power amps I might have the best luck with? I'm trying to steer toward tube power amps if possible just to try to help breath as much "tube life" into the Kemper as possible.


    I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised by the Kemper. My skepticism is just high because I've been playing professionally for 20 years and have never heard a single modeling amp that didn't sound artificial to me. But in Kemper's defense, I've never played a Kemper. (c:

  • Sorry about not being able to recommend a power amp, I use KPA with studio speaker but I'm sure others will chime in.


    Once you get the KPA you can download rig manager (software librarian). It directly connects you to the rig exchange online and you can search it. If you use the word direct, you will get everything on the exchange that has the word direct (no cab). There's quite a few but so far not as many as the studio profiles (amp and Cab profiled). Still don't dismiss the studio profiles, disabling the Cab will yield excellent result for many who use use the KPA live into real speaker by disabling cab.


    All I can say is that I've had the KPA for 5 months and it's pretty hard to distinguish the amp from the profile from personal experience profiling my own amp, so for all intended purposes the kemper is the same as the tube amp (with a mic in front of it of course). That's why many professionals use it, Let's be realistic, the sound of a miced tube amp in general is not something extra ordinary if compared with a real amp, but for your purpose of using real guitar cab, it should be pretty good results. An example would be someone who uses an amp head into guitar cab: Kemper will substitute for the head if they get a direct profile to get identical results (for all intended purposes) so they can leave their expensive boutique head (if there's such a thing) and take the KPA onstage with the cab and they won't miss a beat.


    So in summary when you get the Kemper, don't put so much expectation even though you might be blown away but then again I don't recall the last time I was blown away hearing an actual amp miced and fed to the PA. But if you dig deeper and find the profiles that suite you, you will be a happy camper (or should I say Kemper), because Kemer is simply the best solution out there bar none for what you're trying to accomplish. Just like any tool, there need to be a learning stage. Fortunately the KPA is as easy as it's going to get. Once you find the right profiles, you're simply done.

    Edited 2 times, last by Dean_R ().

  • The last part of your last paragraph is what I'm hoping to do. I will hardly ever, if ever, use it for recording (which is a shame because I understand that's where it truly shines). I'm hoping to use it for live purposes and be able to replicate a ton of boutique amp sounds without having to lug them all around with me. I'm tired of carrying my 50 lb. amps around! (c:

  • OhG it's healthy to have a skeptic mind. :)
    Many here post they were skeptics before they tried a kemper, but after profiling their own amps they were amazed at what it can do.


    Some profiling tutorial videos:
    http://www.wikpa.org/Profiling_Tutorials#Videos
    List with hundreds of bands and producers using kempers live and on albums (videos, music and setup links)
    http://www.wikpa.org/Various_stuff

  • These issues have been debated endlessly so there isn't much to add. I never liked SS-amps either before I started using modellers. A good modeller is simulating every stage going from the guitar to the mixing-desk (pre-fx/preamp/post-fx/poweramp/cab/microphone) and does thus need a boring linear non-colouring amp/speaker-solution to accurately reproduce its sound. You can use a tube-amp and ditto cab, but don't expect it to be able to reproduce every other amp accurately. I'd prefer a real Boogie over a profiler through an amp/cab combination that makes every profile sound like a Boogie anyway.


    Personally I use IEMs a lot. It sounds ok, and protects my ears. My alternative to the IEMs is a pair of Dynacord AXM 12A wedges that I connect in series to the KPAs monitor-out. Even if it is a mono-signal it adds a dimension to the sound if I place one monitor in front and one 45 degrees or more off to one side. I run a monitor-mix from FOH (without my guitar) into the second channel of the monitor in front of me. This setup produce glorious stage-sound, but everything tends to get way too loud for my liking if the stage-volume is dictated by an energetic drummer.

    Edited 3 times, last by heldal ().

  • From my experience I can absolutely recommend getting used to mic'd amp sounds and using good iem or frfr wedges with the kemper.
    It took me a while to get used to it and to find profiles that sound AND feel good, in other words have a decent amount of "life". I also have to take my monitoring with me everywhere I go to play live (at least one dxr10), because on some other wedges or rehearsal space PAs the feel is way off. (Decent studio monitors are mostly good to play over, no matter which ones imo)


    Since I arrived at that point, I've been really really happy. Absolutely consistent, great sound. For me, the rest of the band, the foh guy. and the audience (plus recording engineers, producers etc.)
    This works for all the different types of amps out there. I play Rock/Pop/Heavy gigs, Jazz gigs and Bass gigs with that setup, it sounds fine everytime. I know you're not after such diversity at the moment, but who knows what the future brings? Going this way, you have all of these options at the flick of a switch.
    Also, it's a very compact, lightweight setup.


    Another advantage for me is, that my two DXR10 wedges can also be used as a pretty strong little PA, when needed.


    I never liked the other approaches like Kemper plus Power Amp/Cab, they don't seem practical to me.
    If I had only one band with one type of sound, prefered the sound of an actual tube amp through guitar cabs by far, and didn't mind the weight and size of the setup - Just playing a tube amp wouldn't be the worst idea. ;)


    Though I got to say, the Kemper with two DXR10 wedges and the right profiles kicks some serious ass, no doubt about that!

  • Thanks Dean. I'll definitely check those out. You mentioned that they are new profiles. Do you happen to know if there are a good amount of high quality Direct profiles available for download/purchase? I'm mainly looking for the standards like a Friedman BE, some Fender clean and bluesy stuff, and some Marshalls.


    Also, do you have any opinions on which power amps I might have the best luck with? I'm trying to steer toward tube power amps if possible just to try to help breath as much "tube life" into the Kemper as possible.


    I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised by the Kemper. My skepticism is just high because I've been playing professionally for 20 years and have never heard a single modeling amp that didn't sound artificial to me. But in Kemper's defense, I've never played a Kemper. (c:


    Well, like others, I do not think you need a tube-based power amp. The KPA has the reference amp's power section already taken care of, as part of the profile. A clean, transparent solid-state power amp is (as you know already) the official recommendation. However, with that said, if you are absolutely set on using a tube-based power amp, then I would recommend you put in an order for the Fryette Power Station. I guess it must be back-ordered...so, in the meanwhile, you can hook up your Kemper into the loop of your Mesa amp. Sure, it isn't saving you any weight/portability, but it would just be temporary, until your Power Station is delivered.


    As far as profiles/rigs. You certainly can use normal Studio profiles, and simply disable the Cab module, if you are playing through a traditional guitar cabinet. Michael Britt's commercial rig packs are all Studio profiles.


    However, with that said, since you plan on using the KPA with a traditional guitar cab for your personal/stage speake...you definitely should at least try out the Merged profiles that are becoming available. Michael Britt has a few free Merged profiles that are available in the Factory Rig pack that will come installed in your KPA (as part of the 3.1 factory content). Also, Merged profiles are available (for free) on the Factory Rig Pack download section on the Kemper website. Check out the Rig Packs from Soundside, TopJimi, and Michael Wagener.


    Cheers,
    John


    Edit -- Actually, I am not certain the TopJimi and Soundside Kemper Factory Rig Packs are "Merged" type format. The Michael Wagener Rig Pack does, however, contain 11 Merged profiles. Merged Profiles can also be purchased on TopJimi's commercial website.

    Edited 3 times, last by Tritium ().

  • Thanks guys. I appreciate all the tips. I actually REALLY like my sound from my Mesa. And the other guys in the band have told me that I shouldn't touch it because my tone is great. BUT, it's really the portability that I'm trying to improve upon. If I can get the same sound out of the Kemper, even if that means I'm limiting it from it's true versatility, but lighten my load-in and load-out, I'm happy. Plus, the Kemper has on-board effects, so I'd also be able to ditch my G-System and a few extra pedals.


    That's hope #1 for the Kemper; to get at least the same tone that I have now, in a smaller and lighter setup. If I'm able to utilize the Kemper any further than that by being able to replicate some tones that my Mesa Roadster wasn't able to do, even if they aren't spot on due to the fact that I'd be using a cab, that's just a bonus.


    As of right now, I'm leaning toward using the Fryette when they become available and using my Mesa's power until then. But I've also got the option of using a Friedman ASM-12 monitor. So I may give that a shot too.


    Anyone have any experience with the ASM-12?

  • Let me ask you to which degree you think you can reduce the amount of gear to haul if you plan using a 4x12 cabinet plus a tube power amp plus a Profiler plus the Remote ... compared to your current setup.
    To me it reads like you're stuck in the dilemma of "I want something else but I want the very same". The effect of going that way is likely to be a disappointment. You compromise your current setup by a new setup that from day 1 compromises the potential of the new gear.
    In other words, a tube power amp will inevitably color and bend the sound in a way that the given profile wasn't made to sound. If the profiles you had tried before were to harsh, brittle, lifeless, then I firmly believe it was bad profiles. Good profiles capture the warmth, feel and punch to an extent never seen before ... actually with good profiles you can even go beyond what was possible with the real tube amp. But I'm sure it won't happen if you try to go half way here and half way there. You ain't going to achieve something that sounds exactly like your current setup but at the same time exactly like the PA. Everything in between is prone to disappointment. ;)


    Wish you all the best (and the courage to take the full plunge, not just the big toe into the ocean, hehe).

  • If I use a cab, I won't be using a 4x12. That's overkill for what I need. This is my current setup:

    • Mesa Roadster
    • (2) 1x12 Mesa Thiel Cabs
    • G-System mounted on a massive pedalboard that weighs over 60lbs

    So my thoughts on reducing my gear, is mainly in hopes of reducing the overall weight of everything. If I can shed the Roadster for the Kemper, that's a huge weight difference (even with a separate power amp). As far as the speakers go, I'd either keep the two 1x12 cabs I have (although I doubt the Mesa stuff will really give me what I'm looking for from the Kemper, because I know Mesa speakers aren't anything special). So I'd either keep them, or sell them and get a better pair of 1x12 cabs, or maybe just a 2x12. The other option, would be to get rid of them and go with a FRFR monitor, but if I do that, I think I'm leaning toward the Friedman ASM-12 as it seems to replicate the "amp in the room" feel better than a PA speaker.


    The biggest weight relief would come in the form of my pedalboard. The G-System alone weighs 17 lbs. I'd be able to shed that, along with 4-5 other pedals in favor of the smaller and lighter Kemper controller and the Kemper's effects.


    I AM holding out hope for the Kemper. I just have doubts. But I do want it to work, which is why I ordered it and can't wait for it to arrive. And I'm not stuck on a tube power amp. If I can get this thing to sound great with a SS power amp, great! In that case, I'll likely return it and just buy the Kemper powered rack instead to save on space and portability there too.


    So many options! ARGH! I should have been a drummer!

  • IMHO the original intended use of the profiler is using it through an FRFR cab.
    By this I don't want to imply that using a guitar cab is inferior but it's not the whole paradigm shift.
    Therefore I personally recommend doing the full step and use the profiler with a decent FRFR.
    Only if you absolutely cannot do the paradigm shift to FRFR then by all means use it with your favourite cab.
    My 2 cents... ;)

  • I agree with Ingoff.


    What I'm doing (rock covers) and what I was using (Road King, G-Sys, Pedal Train) is/was very similar to you. I went all in. I use a monitor that's representative of our mains, both Carvin Audio. I still use some pedals and a pedal board. I also still use a small rack for power conditioner, wireless and specialty pedals which are switched by midi from the KPA. My amp went from about 180lbs to about 50. The rack weight went down and is less complicated due to less pedals (G-Sys was controlling) and it's now the heaviest part. My pedal board also shrunk in size, weight and complexity. The others in the band love the setup. The sound, ease of use, no mic'd cabs, consistent volumes, less noise in noisy venues, smaller footprint for amp and pedals.

    Learn to Swim

  • Ampoholic,


    It sounds like your situation is almost identical to mine. So the first thing I'm going to try with the Kemper (as Ingolf also recommended) will be the FRFR route. I'm considering a DXR-10 as many have mentioned, but I just have such doubts that a plastic molded PA speaker will be able to produce the full, thick guitar sound that I'm expecting. I'm hoping to be wrong. The other option may be a Friedman ASM-12. I've heard that one and know that it can provide the "cab in the room" feel and is more than loud enough. We'll see. (c:

  • Funny stuff dude! I had the same worries. Went back and forth for a long time before pulling the trigger on the KPA and the monitor. The monitor I bought is a powered (400w), 2 way (12"woofer, 1.5" HF driver). in wood (poplar). Like I said, it's the same line our mains are from so I have a good idea of what's getting out. and when I crank it when jamming alone it really sounds great. Unfortunately, I don't believe they make a powered one anymore.

    Learn to Swim

  • My personal philosophy is that I want to hear exactly what the audience hears. Out of the box, the "best" sounds I was getting from my KPA were running it through the effects loop of my tube amp. But, I forced myself to commit to FRFR and haven't looked back since. This way, whether I'm practicing in the basement, rehearsing with the band, or performing, I'm crafting my sounds based on what the audience will be hearing. This is especially important in a cover band situation where I'm using a wide variety of profiles during a set.


    A lot of guitarists can never get past the experience of standing in front of a real tube amp, and that's fine. For me, however, the FRFR paradigm shift has allowed me to get a lot more out of the Kemper experience.

  • Carp,


    I'm hoping that the paradigm shift won't be so drastic for me. I used to use a 4x12, then shifted down to just a 2x12, and now I'm using only 1x12 cabs (sometimes just one of them at a gig, angled up at me the way a monitor would be). So I've gradually reduced the amount of "pushed air" that I'm feeling from the cabs. Hopefully, going from the 1x12 cab to a 1x12 FRFR monitor will just be the next step in the progression and I'm ASSUMING it won't be as drastic of a change for me as it would be for someone who is going from a 4x12 cab to a 1x12 monitor.