Sameness in the gain and character across profiles

I don't agree at all. In fact Kemper is the ONLY platform I know where a Vox feels like a Vox, a Marshall like a Marshall, etc.

Actually I sometimes agree, but it's hard to know if this is just down to the cab's/mics used, or the lack of original circuit designs on amps (they're 90% fender it seems), or if it's the Kemper doing it.

Well, if you experience a similar gain structure across the profiles you have been playing, that probably is due to a similar gain structure of the amps that were profiled. It has been shown in many cases that a comparison of the amp / cab / mic and the resulting profiles are virtually indistinguishable. That wouldn't be the case if the KPA profiles changed the gain structure. I assume you don't make your own profiles?

Most amps ARE very similar. Try not to judge them by their cover (and price haha), listen to their sound instead. The Kemper can get very close to their miced sound. I'm not saying there is no room for improvement, but the effectiveness is already so good that I do not really care. Maybe a profile is a tiny bit different, but so is the real tube amp a few days later...

Given the fact that an enormous number of profiles - of many different amps - are made with similar mic's and speakers (most often V30s), and bearing in mind just how big an influence speakers are on the tone of an amp, it's probably not surprising that lots of profiles sound quite similar. But I still think Kemper profiles, done properly, capture the feel of different amps amazingly well.

I love this word "gain structure". What does it even mean?

When I first got my Kemper there was a sameness that disturbed me. After doing a flash initialization not only did the rigs have their own identity but it was like hearing stereo for the first time. Not sure why but I am not the only one to have this happen. Even at the time there were many reports of the issue here and that's how I learned that it might be experiencing a bug. It was night and day.

Quote

What I'm hearing and feeling are similar gain structures across amps that shouldn't be similar at all, especially as you alter the parameters in the profile away from the captured settings.

what I'm reading: "when I increase the gain on the Marshall rig, it sounds just as distorted when I do the same thing to the Mesa rig. Isn't that WEIRD anyone?! It must be the SAME gain structure, huh?! I mean, the gain sounds gainy!"

Quote from Michael_dk

I love this word "gain structure". What does it even mean?

The term is used incorrectly in the quote; it has nothing to do with what that poster at TGP was trying to say.

This smacks of yet another attempt to somehow discredit the Kemper, IMHO. The now-tired reference to the fact that the Kemper employs a "limited number of reference profiles" in its profiling engine is a dead give-away to me. Said number is irrelevant when none of us knows exactly how the "magic" happens anyway. For all we know, only one reference profile may be strictly-necessary, and I suspect it is. My guess is that for every additional reference "template" used, the profiling ability of our beloved beast is hugely enhanced in terms of the accuracy of results.

I smell a rat, and it's one that curled up and died long ago and should have been taken out with the garbage and disposed of permanently in due course.

Sorry for posting this again

from 16:15 : several amps running trough the same cab, not a big tone diference, just diferents flavours imho

imho , i think is very hard to translate how we ear the amp in the room with just a couple of mics.

did you ever recorded a drum kit ? or your voice ?

them sound very diferent from how we ear it in person.

ps: sorry for my english

Ha!

You know, Kosta, your 2nd-last sentence sounded just like a modern-day Englishman (Brit):

"them sound very diferent from how we ear it in person"

Anyway, I hear you mate. Good points.

Quote from Monkey_Man

The term is used incorrectly in the quote; it has nothing to do with what that poster at TGP was trying to say.

This smacks of yet another attempt to somehow discredit the Kemper, IMHO. The now-tired reference to the fact that the Kemper employs a "limited number of reference profiles" in its profiling engine is a dead give-away to me. Said number is irrelevant when none of us knows exactly how the "magic" happens anyway. For all we know, only one reference profile may be strictly-necessary, and I suspect it is. My guess is that for every additional reference "template" used, the profiling ability of our beloved beast is hugely enhanced in terms of the accuracy of results.

I smell a rat, and it's one that curled up and died long ago and should have been taken out with the garbage and disposed of permanently in due course.

Exactly.

Although I suspect the term is just something that is being thrown around because people like to sound smarter than they are (and end up sounding dumber instead). It's detrimental, because other people will start to listen for "bad gain structure", and will hear it solely because of the placebo effect. Much better to be specific, like "too much high frequency content", or whatever.

It's like the good ol' "it sounds digital".Yeah sure, binary an all. Either it's off or it's on. That's so digital!

Actually, I *do* know what "gain structure" means, and this ain't it - I was just being deliberately obtuse. For anybody listening in: gain structure is basically gain staging. Which is how each individual stage of amplification in a signal chain is set in relation to each others. As in, kemper output volume at minus 70 dB, mixer/interface at +70 dB to compensate, or vice versa - this would usually be bad gain staging.

In summary: shutupshutupshutupshutup.

To be perfectly honest in 44 yrs of playing all variety of amps, when they are properly tubed and bias adjusted, they all pretty much sound alike played clean or with overdrive applied. of course there are differences, but el34 rigs sound like el34 rigs, 6l6 sound like 6l6's etc...YMMV....

there was a thread a while ago where someone (sinmix?)posted a clip with a few real amps recorded through the same real cab and they sounded almost identical. also if you add "kemper gain" to a mid/highgain profile (beyond the amount of the original profile) you end up with a grainy mess and most profiles will sound very much the same IMHO.

some hi gain profiles may sound similar, but that's obvious for me since the level of compression at hi gain level even the dynamics & tone , that's why I never play very hi gain stuff.

some cleans or driven tones might be a little bit similar but it's due to the fact that amp real models are based on similar designs & tube types, but hopefully with lots of variations in the profiling itself.

The only time I was shocked by the lack of difference between profiles was the time when I forgot I had a CAB locked.

LOL Classic.

Quote from luntho

there was a thread a while ago where someone (sinmix?)posted a clip with a few real amps recorded through the same real cab and they sounded almost identical. also if you add "kemper gain" to a mid/highgain profile (beyond the amount of the original profile) you end up with a grainy mess and most profiles will sound very much the same IMHO.

yes, this is how it always is in the "real world "... Many people are not aware of
this phenomenon because most aren't in a studio where they can see this happen in action ... And if that doesn't convince people your cab and mic are more important for the profile then I don't know what will...

What i conclude is that the majority of the TGP users in the digital forum area don't have a great deal of experience with real life amplifiers.

Sure seems that way.