So I'm currently using an Atomic CLR wedge monitor for stage and running direct to FOH. However, for smaller gigs I'd like a traditional backline solution but I want to keep it in the FRFR realm as I didn't like the result using a traditional guitar cab. I could get another CLR (the standard cab) but I'd prefer a multi-speaker setup and/or more expansive sound than I generally get with the CLR, akin to playing through a half-stack. What alternatives are there?
Full Range Backline Solutions
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Some companies which make guitar cab looking FRFR cabinets that come to mind:
Friedman
Mission engineering
KPA-Solutions (their blueamp 212FR looks, and is suppose to feel, like a 4X12)
MatrixI never tried them myself thought!
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Some companies which make guitar cab looking FRFR cabinets that come to mind:
Friedman
Mission engineering
KPA-Solutions (their blueamp 212FR looks, and is suppose to feel, like a 4X12)
MatrixI never tried them myself thought!
Just been checking out Friedman's ASM-12 but that's more a less a like-for-like replacement for the CLR.
I was familiar with the KPA-Solutions gear but last time I checked it was impossible to buy their products.
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Also consider the Red Sound cab for the Profiler, a very well-made FR loudspeaker IMO... and extremely loud.
Could you elaborate about the "espansiveness" (?) you feel you're missing? Not sure I get the idea.
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Also consider the Red Sound cab for the Profiler, a very well-made FR loudspeaker IMO... and extremely loud.
Could you elaborate about the "espansiveness" (?) you feel you're missing? Not sure I get the idea.
The air movement of a larger cab with a multi-speaker array.
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You mean like a 2x12" or 4x12"?
I found this from Mr. J. Mitchell posts over TGP, in case it can be of help:
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Q: It intrigues me that you say your speakers are less beamy than a 4x12.A: Anything is less beamy than a 4x12.
Q: It seems to me that a 4x12 wouldn't be beamy cause of the cab helping to spread the sound around.
A: It's the opposite. The 2x2 array formed by a 4x12 cab creates a much narrower beam than would any one of the speakers by itself.
Q: the guitar speaker moves the air a different way.
A: Problems with "FRFR" have nothing to do with "moving air." There are two key issues in getting amp-like feel from an FRFR system: the quality of the speaker system, and the quality of the cab sim ("IR"). Neither are trivial to achieve, and both are essential.
I'll add that, IMO, if the "feel" you get standing in front of a 4x12 is your definition of musical satisfaction, you're probably better off playing a tube rig. You'll only get the "feel" in question when you're playing at high enough volume levels to drive your hearing highly nonlinear. At those levels, even if you could hear subtle differences (I claim it is impossible), you won't retain that ability for very long....A: First, every speaker pulls just as much air as it pushes. That's a fact.
Second, the parameter of importance here - the one that determines that maximum low frequency output a piston radiator (aka "cone speaker") can produce is volume velocity. The woofer in the CLR - like the woofers used in many high-output monitors - has more than four times the maximum volume velocity capacity of a typical guitar transducer. Ergo, it can "pump more air" than most 4x12 guitar cabs. That is also a fact.
It is not a fact that "FRFR does not push air the same way as a guitar cab." This will be trivially obvious to anyone with more than a passing understanding of loudspeaker behavior. It is nothing but an audio myth, and I am getting really weary of seeing it propagated. There is not some special type of physics that only works if you call your box a "guitar cab." The same physical laws - not "theories, but proven facts - apply to all transducers.
How close you get a CLR to sound and feel like any given guitar cab - they really don't all sound the same, nor do they all have a common element in their sound - depends entirely on the modeler and how you have it set up, including what cab sim (IR) you are using. The CLR will sound exactly as much like a guitar as the signal you put into it does. That is also a fact.Q: never have i ever heard a frfr sound like a thunderous 4x12 cab.
A: No need to apologize to me. I can't help it if a) your experience with equipment is so limited and b) you apply such a primitive standard to musical expression.
Q: There's a physical sensation standing in front of a hard-driven 4x12 that's hard to duplicate with a 12" FRFR speaker system without painfully high SPL.
A: If you're driving a 4x12 hard enough to experience a "physical sensation," then someone is being subjected to "painfully high SPL." The apparent difference is more likely due to differences in placement/aiming of guitar cabs vs. FRFR speakers than to any other difference.
Q: Maybe it has something to do with having a mini-wall of 400+ square inches all moving more or less in unison.
A: Uhh, make that 280 square inches. The surface area of the moving portion of a 12" speaker cone is ~70 sq. in.
Q: If you get a 4x12 cab your moving alot more air then you are with just a k12 or other FRFR monitors.
A: I have explained in detail more than once why this is a myth. In the case of most guitar-specific speakers, a well-designed 1x12 FRFR system can "push" more air than a 4x12. There's a whole lot more to "pushing air" than the nominal size of the transducer cone. The volume velocity capacity of a well-designed 12" woofer is more than four times that capacity for typical guitar 12" speakers. So it is altogether possible - likely, in fact - that a well-designed two-way system with a single woofer can "move" more air than a 4x12 guitar cab. This is not always the case, but neither does the "moving air" comparison always favor a guitar cab.
Q: An open back cab disperses sound differently from a closed back or 3/4 back or ported cab. And that's all part of the feel.
The CLR will produce consistent response over a much larger angle than any guitar cab possibly can. At the same time, it will do a much better job of confining its radiation to its defined 90-degree pattern. IOW, it has a broader coverage pattern, but it also does a better job of minimizing stray radiation outside of that pattern. Both properties are beneficial.
There is no conflict whatever between an ability to "project" - however that term might be defined in your own personal jargon - and the ability to sound every bit as good at the lowest volumes as it does at maximum SPL. The Atomic CLR needs no minimum SPL in order to deliver its full sonic potential.
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That's interesting. I was unaware of the physics behind air movement in a guitar cab vs. FRFR system.
I recently did a gig using my CLR wedge as a backline amp. I made the mistake of leaving it on the floor instead of pole mounting. Not only could I hear next to nothing of myself, neither could the audience until I cranked the mids to the point where they would cut through a barn door. My tone was absolute shit but at least I could be heard. It would be worth doing with a pole mount as I've gigged that way with a different brand of monitor and it worked well. However, if I was going to return to using a backline solution I would prefer to do so with something that resembles a real guitar cab, for cosmetic reasons alone and to match the traditional setup the other guitarist in my band uses.
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I have always played on tubeamps miced trough PA. i also have a lovely CAE 2x12. I use in ear like all of the bandmembers.. so for me the DXR8 is more than enaugh to have on stage.. Its not exactly the in-room sound as a good combo or cab, but together with a good in-ear system The solution works fine for me. I am not afraid of middle freq. You need it to cut trough
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JM advises against using any cab as backline. Here below follow some further excerpts from his on-line lessons.
As a matter of fact, a traditional guitar cab used as backline gives the impression to better cut the mix to the player only: the audience will not hear you any better.
Are you currently using the CLR wedge?
If planning to switch to something more "traditional" but still optimized for the Profiler, I couldn't stress more how I was pleased by the Red Sound: plenty of volume, good diffusion pattern, linear. It's an "FR" cab.
QuoteA minimalist tutorial on loudspeaker placement and aiming.
This is not specific to any model or type of speaker. Guitar cabs are affected by the same acoustic phenomena that affect full range speakers, and to the same degree.Q: I have heard that it is recommended to tilt the Cab back to project (so as not at the player's ankles). Is this the same effect as the Wedge even though the cab would not have the "coupling" effect with the ground (as it would be leaned on something) and perhaps generate less bass?
A: Yes, it is the same effect as the Wedge. There is no "coupling" effect in the way you are thinking of it. There is only proximity to a room boundary. Placing a speaker near a boundary and aiming it parallel to that boundary together cause a huge degradation in response. Aiming the speaker upward substantially reduces this degradation; elevating it and aiming it essentially eliminate it.
When you wish to use a speaker to provide sound to an audience - as opposed to strictly as a personal monitor - you should elevate the speaker above ear level (any lower, and there will be people and objects between the speaker and some or all of the intended listeners), place it well away from walls, and aim it towards the approximate (left-right) center of the audience area. There are several reasons for this, some of which are intuitively evident even to nontechnical people:
1. There is a line-of-sight, straight path from the speaker to the ears of every audience member.
2. The listeners that are farthest from the speaker are closest to on axis and nearer listeners are more off axis. This helps reduce volume differences from front to rear seats.
3. Because the speaker is placed and aimed away from nearby room boundaries (floor and walls), the magnitudes of early reflections are minimized. Early reflections always cause undesirable colorations which cannot be equalized out.
The same principles apply whether you are rehearsing or performing in front of an audience. There are some subtleties of placement and aiming that depend on the specific behaviors of the speaker(s) and room, but the above general practice is always best. If you are not the only listener whom you wish to cover with your rig, it is always best to elevate it and aim it appropriately.
If you are using a speaker as a floor monitor, it is almost always serving an audience of one. In some cases there may be a second or third listener, but, even then, the listeners will be predictably located close to the on-axis position. This is the intended purpose of a floor wedge.
If you place your speaker on the floor and aim it parallel to the floor, the sound quality it produces will be irreparably and seriously compromised, but the exact nature of the compromise will vary from listener to listener. This is just as true of guitar cabs as it is of full range speakers. The (very) early floor reflection resulting from this placement/aiming will cause huge notches and peaks in the frequency response (aka "comb filtering"), and this degraded response will affect every member of the audience, as well as the player him(her)self. Because the specific frequencies at which notches and peaks occur vary with the position of the listener, they can never be equalized. Attempts to make things better at one location will inevitably make them worse at other positions.
Note that, in sharing the above, I have made no mention of anything specific to a brand or model of loudspeaker. This is because the above are all based on well-understood, immutable principles of acoustics and apply to all loudspeakers of any type. If you habitually set your cab on the floor aimed horizontally, you should be aware that what you hear from it will always be profoundly different than what anyone else hears. The same applies to setting a wedge on the floor aimed upward, although in that case it really only matters what you hear.
Now, with all the above in mind, I will explain again the basis for the presets in the CLR.
1. "FF" is for free field use. This means any placement/aiming in which the speaker is neither in close proximity nor aimed parallel to a room boundary.
2. "Tilt" is optimized for use as a floor wedge. This preset makes the response flat for a small group of listeners who are close to the on-axis position. Hopefully the motivation for this optimization approach requires no further explanation. The response will not be as flat for listeners who are well-removed from the axis of the speaker. IOW, if you place a wedge on the floor behind you aimed upward and stand well away from the speaker, you will not be hearing the designed response of the speaker.
3. Like "Tilt," "BL" is optimized for just one listener. In this case, however, the choice is forced: there is no way to optimize the response for mutiple listeners, and that optimization is an imperfect one even for a single listener, for all the reasons stated above. If you place a CLR on the floor, select this preset, and stand approximately six feet away from the speaker, the overall response will be balanced. There is no way to optimize any speaker to a greater degree than this when it is to be used in this manner.
If you are interested primarily in covering yourself from behind, the best way to do this is to aim the speaker (again, any speaker, not just a CLR) upward so that it is pointing at your ears when you're in playing position. If you've elevated the speaker by a foot or more, use the "FF" setting. If it's on or less than a foot above the floor (but aimed upward), the "Tilt" setting will produce the flattest response.
If you want to cover the audience but won't elevate the speaker above ear level, then tilting it upward as above to place your ears on axis is the best compromise. You'll hear the on-axis response, and your audience will be within the coverage pattern of the speaker.
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Thanks for that.
Yes, I'm using a CLR wedge as a personal monitor. Can you provide a link to the Red Sound (because I couldn't find it)?
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I forgot to mention Accugroove who makes some very good sounding FRFR cabinets (I own myself a Latte)
but they are not especially cheap, they're not amplified and they look more like a bass cab than a guitar cab, but they certainly worth to be mention: -
I've got a pair of 12" wedges (Dynacord) that I occasionally have stacked on top of each other in the backline with the profiler on top. Works quite well as as "mini stack", although I prefer the wedge position with one in front and one to my side.
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Thanks for that.
Yes, I'm using a CLR wedge as a personal monitor. Can you provide a link to the Red Sound (because I couldn't find it)?
You are welcome
This is their site.
Also, are you by any chance an FB user? You might just look forRed Sound
HTH
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Thanks.