Amp purists, Studio Engineers etc

    In the past couple of weeks something as come to my attention. It's just a little thought that's been going round in my head and I thought I'd share it with you guys and get your views opinions.


    I was a very early adopter of the kemper and I remember speaking to some big studio engineers/producers who snubbed the KPA. Their opinion was that it was missing something/didn't sound as good as a real amp. Now me being the KPA fan boy that I am, I always defended it. Now what's come to my attention recently is that these big producers/engineers who I very much respect now own/use a kemper in the studio. I find this so funny that they were so convince that the KPA wasn't any good but now they have one. Also I know some big studio engineers/owners get gifts from amp manufacturers and they maybe don't want them to know that they are profiling them etc. This came to light today when I posted a comment on a well respected engineers Instagram page, who I totally respect. I posted "I spot a kemper" on their picture of them recording guitars in the studio, you could tell the kemper was being used as both the input and output light were active, ;) what was strange is that they deleted my comment?? Maybe they don't want people to know they like the KPA, or that they have amp endorsements and don't want to upset these companies either. Either way I think it's interesting that at first they didn't like the KPA but now they are using it and want to still hide the fact. Maybe it's an image thing? I don't know?

    My closest friend is a full time engineer/producer who's worked with a dozen or so name-brand acts. The first time we used the KPA in his studio he was pissed that yet another piece of technology was going to eat into his income by allowing non-engineers to record pro tracks at home. It's not uncommon for even signed bands to come to his studio, do drum tracks and go home to do all the overdubs in the bedroom. It used to be that the bands would come back for reamping and mixing. Now he is afraid that the billable reamping time will eventually go away.


    Even a very extravagant sound/rig only needs to be engineered well just once.

    I hate emojis, but I hate being misunderstood more. :)

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    In my experience, the Kemper is perfect for recording and I personally can't tell the difference between a miced amp and the studio profile. But for bedroom playing or in a band context (rehearsal or small stage) the kemper doesn't sound and doesn't feel like a tube amp. I personally have switched back to tube amp. Fwiw I used a powered Kemper with various profiles including profiles of my own amp and with the same cab.

    It's absolutely fine for anyone to like and use whatever they want, and whatever works for them. I have a friend who plays about half a dozen gigs a year, in tiny pubs, and insists on using a full Marshall stack!
    However, I do find it strange that anyone would use one thing and pretend they were using something else. But guitarists have done this for years, with walls of dummy stacks behind them whilst their mic'd sound was coming from a single 12" iso cab under the stage.
    Personally, I'm immensely proud of my Kemper.

    Quote from Klappy

    My closest friend is a full time engineer/producer who's worked with a dozen or so name-brand acts. The first time we used the KPA in his studio he was pissed that yet another piece of technology was going to eat into his income by allowing non-engineers to record pro tracks at home. It's not uncommon for even signed bands to come to his studio, do drum tracks and go home to do all the overdubs in the bedroom. It used to be that the bands would come back for reamping and mixing. Now he is afraid that the billable reamping time will eventually go away.


    Even a very extravagant sound/rig only needs to be engineered well just once.



    Exactly this :)

    i have a few close friends who are mega producers in the heavy world of things: they've never once voiced anti kemper type comments, hell a few of them were early adopters and use it to this day on HUGE label bands.


    What I DO hear from them though is, how absolutely horrible most of the profiles available are haha... I mean some of these guys absolutely DOG loved profilers and profiles on this forum , and rip them to shreds on their tones, and then explain to me why they feel that way....then i hear some of their tones and profiles and...well... Let's just say I can understand why they feel that way! Haha!

    Quote from VESmedic

    i have a few close friends who are mega producers in the heavy world of things: they've never once voiced anti kemper type comments, hell a few of them were early adopters and use it to this day on HUGE label bands.


    What I DO hear from them though is, how absolutely horrible most of the profiles available are haha... I mean some of these guys absolutely DOG loved profilers and profiles on this forum , and rip them to shreds on their tones, and then explain to me why they feel that way....then i hear some of their tones and profiles and...well... Let's just say I can understand why they feel that way! Haha!



    Thats all good , except how do we get theese "studio guys!" to share or at least sell their profiles to enrich the rest of us and So we can hear them !


    I mean if they say they are great and better than most , but they wont share them or put up samples ....
    how can we really ever know if they do have good sounds better than most of the other profiles??


    Im all for paying for great ones !! Lets hear em !

    Haha well, I think the reality is they don't really care for lack of a better term what we think. They just know what works for their mixes and what is detrimental in mixes immediately when they hear an isolated guitar track. The reality is they are in the business of making records and a living, not impressing the kemper forum. Much the same as, I couldn't care less what some may think of my tone either, so to each his own....as far as releasing guitar tones; well I've been down this road before on this forum, and a few got so butt hurt because they didn't like what i had to say... Actually let me rephrase that... What me the MESSENGER/middle man relayed to the forum on this subject. Bottom line is no one is giving away their tones at that level or even selling them unless you are doing a record with them and dropping that kind of coin... This is why you don't see Sneap or Colin Richardson or audiohammer reessing their tones. Doing drum samples for a company
    ( which is usually the first argument people Come at me with on this subject ) are not even close to the same thing as what the kemper does, the engineers could elaborate further on this subject im sure... But hey don't hate the messenger here...

    Dunno, to me doing drum samples is much more work than the Kemper.


    The real difference that I can see for engineers or producers is that 99% of the time you use the whole (or at least most of the) frequency range of the drums, while 99% of the time when recording you hi-pass the living snot out of guitars. So a sound that's good for record tends to be nothing that you'd want to hear coming out of a guitar amp or your Kemper, not only that but it's very track and section specific. That means that while you can easily make a commercial drum sample library and it'll sound great in the hands of neophites, releasing a profile library that's truly "record ready" would likely be hugely damaging to your brand name once people that don't understand the recording process get a hold of it.


    To the OP I'm not surprised that people want to preserve the magic of mystery of their recording techniques. So much in the music recording world is about "mojo" and stuff that only those with "golden ears" can discern, Music doesn't seem to be at that stage where people are being experimental in the studio anymore, all the new ideas in audio are coming from the programmers keyboards these days instead, so your knowledge becomes the real valuable asset in a studio. I'm pretty sure it's really just about scraping a living and knowing your clients. Most guitarists still want the magic of the all analog signal chain, because that's what their heroes used and they want to sound like those guys. Not to mention that most people feel that something is only good if they personally can't afford it, grass is greener syndrome, so that's where a studio comes in to the picture and it's where a producer or engineer earns their keep, that and lots and lots of great experience in doing it right. I don't think talking about a magic box like the Kemper fits into that marketing plan.

    On the other side you have guys like Andy Sneap or Micheal Wagener who made a "lot of noise" about the KPA. ;)


    I dont know if modern days sound engineers really fear the new generation of modelers.The way of recording has already changed many years ago with the introduction of drum computers and later all the programmes and digital tools.There is no way back anyway.So what "fear" and "hiding" we are talking about;


    I also believe that the modern day sound engineers & producers who till yet had not a lot to do with "rock guitar recording" like all the many,many R & B and HipHop-guys are very happy with the KPA or the AxeFx.I had a lot of work in the past from these guys who asked me to do rock guitars in my studio but ofcourse they were never happy about the money they had to pay for this.Now they can call any guitar player they know to play them some licks for a few bucks in their own cramped little studio just with the KPA.And I dont believe that these guys will "hide" the KPA from the eyes of the public.


    It needs time.I know this because I am definitly one of those "last guys" who damned digital technology and thought 100% that it is "uncool" and that it will kill rocknroll (which it did for a long time).


    If something really sounds good it will prevail.This is the only rule which exists in music.Recording loud rocknroll guitar in the past was a rather complicated thing.You needed a room deep down under the earth,you needed all the expensive "analog signal chain" etc and if these things were not available the idea of the rock guitar in many R&B and HipHop stuff of the past was very quick abandoned. because the pod or the first generations of amp-sims sounded like shit for any kind of "wall of sound"-rocknroll guitars.Even in the ears of all these kidzzz..Now with the KPA,AxeFX and even the latest generations of the amp-sims these all has changed already and there is no way back.I guess for us guitar players this is good news;



    And one last thing..what ever any sound engineer or producer tells me about how "shitty" these new modelers are..the fact that all of these guys can now record heavy rock guitars from their desk at daytime next to the window with the sun shining on their pale faces..they are lying.... :thumbup:

    I have been getting the same feedback from the old tube amp purists too..i just don't sound like a tube amp. when questioned they can not explain why, but their golden ears can tell the difference. well the first guitarist who heard and electric guitar thru an amp for the first time said, "ya know it just don't sound like a real guitar". The paradigm will change as i see more and more kempers in studios all over the world, and if these golden ear purists are using them: it is for a damn good reason. purists have resisted almost all advancement in music, and in general life..if they would have had their way we would still be singing Gregorian Chants with no accompaniment. IMHO

    Quote from VESmedic

    i have a few close friends who are mega producers in the heavy world of things: they've never once voiced anti kemper type comments, hell a few of them were early adopters and use it to this day on HUGE label bands.


    What I DO hear from them though is, how absolutely horrible most of the profiles available are haha... I mean some of these guys absolutely DOG loved profilers and profiles on this forum , and rip them to shreds on their tones, and then explain to me why they feel that way....then i hear some of their tones and profiles and...well... Let's just say I can understand why they feel that way! Haha!


    Of course good sound is ultimately subjective, no matter who you are. I also think that some of the beloved commercial profiles are lacking, but that's just for what I need. I also think that a lot of big wig producer/engineers make "horrible" recordings, at least to my ears. I used to hear a lot about M Wagener's reamping service and was curious about him until I tried his profiles. I won't say they are bad (no phase issues, etc.), but I will say that they are pointed so far in a different direction from my tastes, that I could never use them. Cheers to the guys that like them though, and I mean that sincerely.


    But what isn't subjective IMHO is that the KPA is essentially a guitar-sound sampler that particularly shines in studio settings. Some folks express reservations about using it live, but those reservations would be the same if the players old half-stack was miked back stage with the signal feeding the player's IEM or wedge. I still think the KPA is a threat to many studios, especially those that get business based on their huge amp collection. The KPA will never completely replace studio amps, just like 10 gig piano samples haven't completely replaced the grand piano. But big or small, it's the next piece of technology that is going to bite into commercial studio revenue. As with previous tech advances, the "cost is no object" situations aren't affected. There will always be studios with a Steinway, a Rhodes, a B3, and two drum kits and a real plate reverb. There are just fewer of them these days.

    I hate emojis, but I hate being misunderstood more. :)

    Like 2
    Quote from VESmedic

    Haha well, I think the reality is they don't really care for lack of a better term what we think. They just know what works for their mixes and what is detrimental in mixes immediately when they hear an isolated guitar track. The reality is they are in the business of making records and a living, not impressing the kemper forum. Much the same as, I couldn't care less what some may think of my tone either, so to each his own....as far as releasing guitar tones; well I've been down this road before on this forum, and a few got so butt hurt because they didn't like what i had to say... Actually let me rephrase that... What me the MESSENGER/middle man relayed to the forum on this subject. Bottom line is no one is giving away their tones at that level or even selling them unless you are doing a record with them and dropping that kind of coin... This is why you don't see Sneap or Colin Richardson or audiohammer reessing their tones. Doing drum samples for a company
    ( which is usually the first argument people Come at me with on this subject ) are not even close to the same thing as what the kemper does, the engineers could elaborate further on this subject im sure... But hey don't hate the messenger here...



    I just want to get my hands on the tones ,
    Im not asking them to impress me , I believe you but why cant they share or sell ?
    Im ok paying for profiles from studio engineers especially if they can reference an album it was used on with minimal post processing
    Im looking for great tones for my kemper that sound like album tones !
    and i dont mind high passing the snot out of them but it doesnt seem to be enuff! I try to match album tones , and most profiles dont sound anything like the album , when you get the isolated tracks which are available online ( thanks to rock band xbox game leaks)



    if you listen to the following tracks from real songs like van halen , notice there isnt a ton of bass and low end like in most of the profiles commercial and free
    and i think theese guitar tracks sound great on thier own without a mix !!!
    so whats the difference between those tones on the albums and the real amp sounds and the kemper sounds ?
    whats the secret magic sauce and where can i get it?
    is there a magic genie somewhere who can help me?


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    and here you can download a ton of multitracks with bass and drums seperated


    https://mega.nz/#F!v8oHCLza!SqPtonX0xbfz5eXqKFdZ6g



    how do you nail those tones?
    i mean now technology has allowed us to have the kemper which matches amp tones!


    so do we have to wait until technology can create something that will copy album guitar tones?

    Haha well, I laid out the best I can explain why no one is giving out their tones or even selling them... If you built your name on "your sound" would you just freely hand out your livelyhood to people or even sell it unless they were doing a record with you??? I sure as hell wouldn't... It's a testament to how great the kemper is, that's for sure... All of the engineers I named are all readily available on Facebook: why don't you ask them and see what they say??? :)

    i guess i would have to pay a million dollars and go to a studio have them get a great sound for me then profile it ,


    so kemper is great tool but it needs content meaning great profiles and if they are out of reach or out of budget that still makes the dream of those album tones impossible even though the kemper is a great tool and can do it ,
    it needs the content
    without great profiles its just a box
    and those producers arent willing to share :(
    i guess the average working guy will never get those tones , ahh well

    Quote from JHERCULEES1

    i guess i would have to pay a million dollars and go to a studio have them get a great sound for me then profile it ,


    so kemper is great tool but it needs content meaning great profiles and if they are out of reach or out of budget that still makes the dream of those album tones impossible even though the kemper is a great tool and can do it ,
    it needs the content
    without great profiles its just a box
    and those producers arent willing to share :(
    i guess the average working guy will never get those tones , ahh well



    I think you're going about this in the wrong way.


    How did those guys achieve the tones in the first place? They didn't sit on their arses waiting for someone to dial in their tone for them - they worked with the amps they had to get the best tone they could. For all we know, the tones of many "idols" were "the best they could get with their equipment", not necessarily what they truly wanted. It just turned out that those tones spoke to alot of people (maybe even because of the songs, arrangements etc rather than because the tone itself).


    Find the profile you like best - for YOUR tastes, not because of what an album done by others sounds like. A big part of this can also come from switching cabs around - maybe that's even the best starting point, find the profile you like best, then lock the cab and browse profiles to find an amp you like. Then tweak from there, so it fits with YOUR guitar, playing style, technique, SONGS, ARRANGEMENTS (all caps for a reason). Etc etc etc.


    The guitar "heroes" of yesterday WORKED for their tones - they didn't show up at the studio and waited for the engineer to dial it in for them. And they probably worked with the whole band, not just sitting in their room alone (though that is certainly a valid starting point). Believe me, whatever magic happens in the studio is already done BEFORE the guitarist enters the studio. It's a foregone conclusion.


    Oh, and most of the videos you posted have TONS of reverb on the tracks, whether it was done by room mics or "artificial" reverb. So you're not hearing what came out of the amp directly in any case. The basis of a good tone starts with the amp, though.


    If you post a recording of you playing something that in your poinion gets fairly close to what you'd like to hear, then maybe people here can help you get closer.

    Local shop here puts up with my fanboy-ism. But tell me "well, I am still of the opinion that" amps will always trump modelers or at least "for the next decade or two". You guys know these comments.


    Then a guy who works with the gear setup and maintenance during performance for a very famous band here in America (he works at this local store whenever the group isn't on tour) said he introduced the band to the the Kemper and all of a sudden the guys at the shop got very interested and their conversation went from "NEVER" to "Well, I've come to see how this can be a very useful thing"


    They sell amps so they won't publicly go on record. But since they've also played amps for decades they don't want to believe it still. I can tell when talking they aren't truly convinced.


    The gear guy really gets excited to talk to me (well, vice versa) because he doesn't know many people locally who know about the Kemper.


    So there is the dichotomy. Music stores can't get behind this gear too much because it may undercut their amp sales.


    But those who do that actual WORK with professional band's gear come to find their jobs are a lot easier when they can use a Kemper. Sound is 100% consistent. Studio recordings can be taken on the road. They can personally rock out to the profiles. And controlling a digital device is heads and tails easier than having a pedal go out on the floor board and getting that nasty look from the guitarist as if the gear guy is responsible for the failure. The band of course doesn't see the Kemper as a compromise to their sound. They feel they have more options and need less roadies to handle gear.


    So the worst you can say about the Kemper is that it puts roadies out of jobs. But it compensates by reducing the costs of national health programs for hurt backs! (and possible concussions from thrown dead pedals)